Recently I had a conversation with a friend of mine about how it irks me the way people debate over theological issues. The debate doesn’t bother me. If you can find people who don’t take the debate personal, then you can have a great conversation. Too often people get too fired up when they are discussing things. Just last week I had to call a guy and say, “I’m sorry.” And just to get this out of the way, this post has nothing to do with the person I called. I hate it when people say something like, “Well, I believe this because the Bible says it” or “I believe this way because it is the most Biblical way to view the issue.” The implied message is that if you don’t believe what it is they’re saying that somehow you–the heretic–don’t really love God on the same level that they do. You–the moron–don’t really know how to properly read your Bible. The Baptists use this argument to prove that their way is right. Most of the time they’re even willing to use this method to denounce other Baptists, which is why you have “free will baptists” and “southern Baptists” and “independent baptists” and “regular baptists” and “American baptists.” Someone once told me that there are 138 different baptist flavors. All 138 of them are holding a line, they are opening their Bible and slamming their finger down on a verse and saying, “See, it says it right here!
I
am
right!”
My friend seemed to want to have sympathy for me. He was also sympathetic to the view I was decrying. That is one of the things I appreciate about our conversations. We disagree and most of the time he doesn’t walk away questioning my character because we disagree. He said something to the effect of well, that’s the normal argument for that position. I told him I knew that but I get tired of the Bible being used as the final shock and awe weapon to win the battle. I just don’t believe that when God wrote this love letter He intended for us to use it as a battering ram to win arguments. Anybody can claim that what they believe is backed by the Bible. Anybody can say their way is the most Biblical way. They are the one’s defending the truth. Heck, there is an even a Blog where some one has decided to call themselves the “Keepers of Christ’s Truth.” They tell us, Right now, Truth is under attack, and much is at stake.” So I just want to get this strait: The same God who created the entire universe, who has kept the Bible preserved through countless attacks. The same God who reconciled all men to Himself through the sacrificial death, burial and resurrection of His Son needs some guy with a BLOG to defend the Truth? That’s retarded. That goes beyond any sane, reasonable train of thought. It bugs me to no end.
What does this have to do with my opening? Recently after reading a certain author I googled his name. I found this quote by a “critic” on one of the pages.
“Michael, I’m what’s called a Biblical Universalist [sic]…I didn’t just decide universalism was a nice concept (emotionalism as it is frequently described. I found it to be the truth of the Bible. My study started with trying to prove that Annihilation (the doctrine that God puts out of existence all those who reject Him)was true and Eternal Torment was false…I was more than a little surprised to discover they were both false.
Please don’t miss what he said because you disagree with what he said. He said that he believes what he believes because
it
is
found
in
the
Bible.
He’s convinced he’s right and he has Bible verses to back him up. You’re wrong he’s right. It’s that simple. He’s just using the Bible. Now, most of the regular readers here are already thinking of verses and comebacks to prove that he’s wrong. There are some hate mongers who, if this guy’s first name was Doug and his last name rhymed with Racket or if he shared Robert Redford’s first name and the Liberty Bell’s last name, would be putting together hate posts where they would cross link to each other like West Virginia cousins in love and decry him a heretic. Why? He just believes what he believes based on the Bible?
So what? Can we not believe anything? Is everything up for grab? No, I don’t believe so, but I do have a fairly simple litmus test that I will put you through before I choose to listen to your words. That litmus test is simple really. I want to know do you have any of the following in your life?
Love
Joy
Peace
Patience
Kindness
Goodness
Faithfulness
Self Control.
Why aren’t these things listed as the litmus test of our faith. If what you are trying to tell me is of the Spirit it should have these qualities to it. If it doesn’t then it is suspect. I DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOUR DOCTRINE if you do not have these in your life. Your doctrine is as relevant to my life as the NBA. Feel free to fight for the faith, feel free to write hit pieces about Godly men. I hope it makes you feel better. Feel free to anonymously protest me speaking at your camp and hide behind your authority. Feel free to threaten people below you. Feel free to continue not looking like Christ. It’s Ok, you don’t have to earn God’s love. He forgives you for the mistakes you made in that first marriage. You won’t cause God to love you more by being hateful. He doesn’t need you defending His truth. He did just fine before you and I were ever even a hormone inside our parents, He’ll keep doing fine long after our bodies are nothing more than dust in the bottom of a wood box encased in a cement box with six feet of dirt on our heads.
Take all that energy and try to live these things out. Love the gay person who wants the legal right to get married. I dare you. Be kind to the Lesbian who wants to adopt. Be patient with all the liberals. I know, “I’m just spewing social gospel now.” But I’m telling you, you’re not going to impact me all that much without these things in your life. You won’t impact anyone. God won’t be impressed.
I guarantee you I can find someone who disagrees with most of your faith and does so because they believe they have the Bible to stand on. They’ll be willing to say that you just aren’t reading it right, or you’re interpretation is skewed.
Sometimes, it cracks me up two opposing sides will be using the same verse. At the end of the day the only thing that really matters is what kind of fruit your doctrine and theology produces and everyone’s Bible says this list is fruit born of the Spirit.
So I say Grace and Peace to all the Haters. Haters are on both sides of issues. I say to you, Love. Love your neighbors, love your enemies, love those more conservative than you. Love those more liberal than you. Love Barrack, and Hillary. Love McCain. Love Ken Silva and Ingrid Schluetter.
Love God and Love the World. Please just don’t expect me to come running to your view because you have the Bible on your side. Please don’t expect me to give you credence because you believe your way is the most Biblical. Especially, if you’re focusing more on someone looking like you than you are on your trying to look more like this list.
Grace and Peace
You can read more by Joe Martino at his regular blog, which can be found here.
Relevant Christian 
I was brought up Catholic, my sister and brother were born again and I am born again as well (after months of ministry from my sister). My brother who is born again is now a baptist minister (which sect, I’m not sure, a right wing sect).
I thought to myself, as a freshman in high school, there was no difference between the two, we both belived Christ died for our sins and that was the key. As I got older they seemed to let me know the differences. Especially the fact you had to be “born again”.
Many years later, as my mother was dying, my brother used his daughter to try to get my mother to be born again. My mother saw no need. Letters, visits and more letters, but even on her death bed she held her ground.
Let’s just say my brother’s children were quite downtrodden at the funeral as “grandma isn’t in heaven” as they so firmly believed.
Well, if she didn’t go I haven’t a prayer to get in.
I will give my brother a lot of credit in a lot of areas, but flexibility is not a strength of his church.
He did get my grandmother to believe on her deathbed, but she hadn’t been to church – EVER.
There have bee na few posts around lately about the inability to dicuss real feelings and attitudes and beliefs because we have different definitions of truth, or different perspectives and takes on the scriptures. We generally get too bogged down in “what I see” rather than “what we see”. Good post, good rant.
Joe,
Great post…it has become my new favorite.
This post reminds me of Matthew 22:36-40
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Amen!
I’m kind of hurt, Ken linked here but he left out much of the Scripture I used in the post. You’d almost think he doesn’t think he needs any of that list up there or that he has an axe to grind.
LOL…ya think?
That’s our brother Ken! 🙂
One might think that Mr. Silva has the fruit of another spirit on him after meandering around his site.
Hey Joe Martino….have you been trying to call me?
I forgot to give you my new number.
Email me at jimmy@jimmyeldridge.net and I will give you my new number.
Peace
Yeah, Man
I saw you just called but I was on the work line. I was just going to tell you about our link love from Ken. See how life was. I’ll call you later today if you go time.
Sure bro…call me anytime. The number I called you from is my new cell number.
Funny thing…the old number you had is now an old friend of mine’s new number. How weird is that?
He called my wife today and told her you called.
Talk to you later!
I believe Billy Graham made the phrase “the Bible says” famous. Has that gone out of vogue?
Ryan,
I don’t know who you are, but man you have a lot of good things to say! 🙂
“I’m kind of hurt, Ken linked here but he left out much of the Scripture I used in the post.”
Uh what scripture?
Oh you must mean the parapharse you offered.
I do love you and pray your conversion and the comvertsion of all at
.(bad)info everyday.
I am serious.
Chris P,
Would you mind sharing how your list of the Fruit of the Spirit is different?
Chris P,
What version of the bible do you recommended as being most accurate than? You do believe all scripture is inspired right and preserved through all generations!
Well, to make Kens day 🙂 I found this post through his! And you are SO right!
Oh no!
Not the ‘only the KJV is the right version’ argument.
Mark,
Very cool…glad you found us.
“I hate it”
You seem to have a lot of anger about people who don’t want to talk the way you do, just like Silva and others.
Be careful friend. I find it easy to throw stones of love just as much as stones of judgment.
I commend you for wanting to see fruit of the Spirit (which is a means for judging people-something about you will know them by their fruit) you seemed to gloss over the fact that a lot of God’s truth was put under attack from the very start of Church history. Whether is was the legalist’s Paul dealt with Galatians (He wrote a book just to correct them) or Athanasius defending the Trinity, St. Augustine defending Christianity itself with his book the City of God, or Luther defending the gospel, indeed God has raised people to defend his truth. The bible we read today comes to us because of people who died (some tortured and put in prison) for translating it into the language of the masses.
As for party lines, Tim Keller in his latest book talks about how every group has it’s lines. While we can get into very nuanced lines at times, there are a few places that aren’t just lines on the sand, they literally are set in stone. To cross them would be at our own peril.
Hey Joe….I didn’t know you were agnostic! 🙂
Ken said it, so it must be true!
Don’t you believe it! 🙂
Hey Joe,
I also found this through Ken’s Site. Someone the other day asked me why I keep people that do nothing but irritate me with their “unbiblical” approach to disagreements (how’s that?). It really irritates me that he can post w/e he wants and has not accountability b/c he has not comments section.
anywho,
my answer was that although I despise what Ken embodies (the very type of people that you mention in this post, and I’m using him as an example of the endless amount of people that I run across like the people you describe), his site is a GREAT place to find quality pieces like yours. So I thank Ken publicly for posting this link.
Your frustration and passion come through well. I think this is a timely piece that I hope others won’t miss. I am going to link this from my blog so that other readers may find, read, and hear God speak through your words. I am with you, I don’t care if they agree with EVERYTHING you said or quoted, I hope that they are overtaken by the SPIRIT of unity that you convey!
thanks for your words man!
peace
justin
…”we both believed Christ died for our sins and that was the key.” Dom, I ,too, was Catholic-very Catholic-attending Catholic schools right up through college. I also thought, as a Catholic, since I believed Christ died for my sin, I would go to heaven. But I was also trusting in works as that is what the Catholic Church teaches -not just Christ’s death for our sins but that in conjunction with good works. But the Bible says salvation is by grace alone not of works lest any man should boast. I was truly born again when I came to understand that there is nothing I could ever do to save myself. It is a gift of God. Works count for nothing. If someone dies trusting in works PLUS Jesus, that is not salvation. Catholics, if they truly believe what their church doctrine teaches them, are not saved. My mother, grandparents, and many other relatives-all very religious- died without truly being saved. It is not sincerity which saves us-it is right belief and that come from the Bible. Catholic don’t typically read the Bible. They have it read to them. Once I started to read the Bible for myself, then my eyes were opened to the true gospel message of Jesus Christ. What the Bible says IS important. We should not use it to hammer people over the head, but to lovingly direct them to the truth. Without the truth, many will perish. As a former Catholic and one gloriously, miraclously saved by grace, the Bible is everything to me now and I thank God for it
We didn’t believe the works of the catholic church was our salvation. The whole grace thing was not our salvation. Jesus was our salvation. We believe Christ died on the cross for our sins, something we got from the Bible. We believed in his miracles, something we got from the Bible. DO NOT stereo type Catholics, that is simple minded and narrow minded.
Even if you go with the whole grace thing, they still believe what…let me hear you now…Christ died on the cross for our sins so we can be saved.
Don’t tell me one paraphrase is better than the other or the context is different one way or another.
If you want to get literal, please give up all of your possessions and follow Christ.
I’m sorry for the angst, don’t read anything into it, it’s real angst.
Great article Joe, found it over at VerumSerum. It’s spot-on!
At the end of the day, how you went about your day is what counts. Speaking a verse about loving your neighbor does nothing, but grabbing a hold of their trashcan and dragging it up to their gate does.
Thanks again for writing this.
Dom, I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I was not speaking of the works of The Cathlic Church in my post to you. What the Catholic Chursh teaches is that a person obtains salvation (heaven) by doing good works in his lifetime AND by believing in Christ’s sacrifice. That is totally contrary to Scripture. (And, believe me, I do know what the Catholic Church teaches because I went to Catholic schools all the way through to college.) It is a ‘works plus Jesus’ salvation. But, according to Scripture, we must trust in nothing else but Christ’s sacrifice -all our good works are as filthly rags and count for nothing. And, it isn’t just ‘believing that Christ died for our sins’ that saves us either. It is taking hold of that truth by repenting of our sins, turning from them, realizing we are wretched and have nothing to offer God-throwing ourselves on His mercy and accepting His free gift of salvation which is by grace alone. That is so much more than just believing Jesus died for our sins. We have to apply it to ourselves personally. This is something I never did all those years I was a Catholic because I was never told I needed to do it. It was always: ‘Just do good works and believe in Jesus’- but that is not what the Bible teaches. I am not stereo-typing Catholics. I am telling you (in love) the truth of what they believe and it is not true salvation. There is only one way to be saved and that is through Christ alone -by His grace, never by works that we do. Read Romans and Ephesians and what I am saying will become clear to you. This is why the Bible is so important -it guides us to the truth -it IS God’s truth. I am not trying to win an argument with you, but am in love, trying to lead you to understand the true gospel. There are many false gospels today and a great lack of Bible literacy. Once I read the Bible for myself, the scales fell off my eyes. I found the true way of salvation. I pray you will find it, too. May God guide you into His glorious truth.
One more thing, Dom. As a former Catholic, I know it is hard (almost unthinkable) to let go of a reglious system like Catholicism -it is a generational thing, a family thing and so much more. I am third generation Italian (my Dad’s name is Dom! :-). My grandparents came here from the Old Country and the Catholic Church and its teachings were ingrained in me and as much as part of my life as all the other wonderful and special things we enjoyed as grandchildren of Italian immigants. I loved the rituals, the Latin Mass, the Stations of the Cross. I was very religious -almost entered the convert after high school. In fact, I would be the LAST person anyone would ever think would leave the Catholic Church. But I came to a place in my life where things just were not working. When I was just about as low as I could go and contemplating suicide, something I had read in a book by Norman Vincent Peale came alive to me. I don’t even recall what the book was about. But one sentence in that book changed me life – that Jesus Christ died for me, personally. Suddenly, I knew what Christ had done -paid a price I could never pay. I got down on my knees that day and confessed my sin (in a way I had never done in a confessional), and purposed in my heart to turn from it. I prayed long and hard like I had never prayed before in my life. When I got up, I knew something had changed. I felt like I had been washed clean from the inside. I knew without a doubt I had been born again yet I had never even heard that expression. That was 34 years ago and I have never looked back. And it just gets sweeter and sweeter. There is so much more God has for us – it is there for the asking. The (true) gospel offends, it shakes us up, turns us upside down, but rewards us, if we heed it, with new life from above. I have enjoyed conversing with you and wish you the best.
I understand where you’re coming from Rose, believe me. I know what the Catholic Church teaches and stands for. I understand that it’s more than a belief that Christ died for our sins.
I believe the Bible is the key, but I don’t believe any one MAN’s inturpretation of it literally. That’s where a personal relationship with God can develop.
You can’t use the Bible like a throem in Geometry to prove what you want, because if you could you could prove just about anything.
I am relfective and personally involved with Christ. I believe my parents are more in touch with the concept of God and I believe it is personal and reflective.
Add that to their belief in Christ, doing good deeds and can I ask, since I haven’t been to a Catholic Church in over 15 years (outside my Mom’s funeral) do Cahtolics NOT believe in repenting?
I know they are big on confession of sins, but the simple acknowledgement of them isn’t enough I know, but sitting there waiting to talk to the priest I know I was thinking about ways to stop myself from ever doing some of those things again were running through my mind.
I would ask my brother (and sister, who converted him from Catholicism to being a Baptist in college), “You mean all I have to do is say ‘I want to be born again’ and I’m going to heaven?” Sounded too simple and that wasn’t the case, but that’s what I was led to believe.
I’m not a big fan of symantics and too often that’s what we argue about.
Just be carefull making assumptions on what people believe based on what religion they are part of.
Dom,
Why would God write us a letter, the Bible, (to give us directions on how to obtain eternal life) and then make it so that no one could understand for sure what it means? Why would He do that? (That doesn’t sound like a loving God to me.) If it can means many different things to different people, how would anyone know for sure what God expects of us –how He intends to save us? The Bible is not only true, it can be understood by all people-everywhere. God, through the power of His Holy Spirit, will enlighten your mind to understand it if you come to study it with sincere desire to know God’s will. It isn’t as deep and difficult as you are making it out to be. The gospel message is so simple and plain, a child can grasp it. It is not easy the believism, though, that many espouse today –say a prayer, accept Christ, you are (presto, chango) a Christian-now you can just go do your thing and live any way you want and you will go to heaven. Many people who think they are ‘born again’ today are not. Real salvation is true repentance and turning away from sin, taking Christ as Lord and Savior, dying to self and living the rest of your life for Him, to follow His will, crucifying the flesh daily. And that is the hard part, but He gives us the grace.
This is what I hear you implying in your post: the Bible is too hard to understand, no one can interpret it or know for sure what it means, no one interpretation is correct, it’s meaning is relative –different things to different people, all religions are valid. Basically, what people want to believe today is that God can be reached by many paths –we can all come to God any way we feel is right for us personally and He will accept us. We can be our own little gods and decide for ourselves how to reach heaven. But, my friend, that is an evil lie of the enemy. God clearly spelled it out in His Word –how to be saved from the wrath to come. We are all sinners and God is perfect. He cannot allow even one sin into heaven. All sin will be judged. No one is good enough to go to heaven. No matter how caring/loving they appear to us to be, God sees the heart and sees the sin-as all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But, God in His great mercy, made a way by sending His Son who was without sin to take our sin upon Himself, to take our punishment for it, to die and be raised up so that we, too, can be raised and have a home in heaven. Oh, there ARE parts of the Bible that people can debate about and come up with different ideas. But, the central part – this thing of salvation- is laid out so plainly in Scripture, a child can get it! Dom, have you really read the Scriptures-the New Testament especially? Don’t listen to what people say –go to God’s Word. Read for yourself asking God to help you. He will. He wants you to know that you can know FOR SURE what He says. His truth is not relative, it is absolute. Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life and NO MAN comes to the Father but by me.” (How many different ways can someone interpret that?-pretty straight forward, isn’t it?) And that is not just believing Christ died for your sin. You say you are “reflective and personally involved with Christ” –what does that mean? Does it mean you are not trusting in your good works to get to heaven? That, instead, you are trusting in Christ ALONE for salvation and have forsaken sin as a lifestyle? If so, then you are saved, but I don’t think that is what you mean here. We don’t get in touch with a ‘concept of God”. He is not a concept, but a real Person. We can know Him personally, talk and walk with Him daily. He is so much more than a ‘concept’. He is a real personal God whom you can know intimately and call Him Abba, Father. The God of all this Universe, the Maker and Creator of all things, yet you can know Him and be His own son.
You said, ‘sitting there waiting to talk to the priest I know I was thinking about ways to stop myself from ever doing some of those things again were running through my mind.’ Yes, the Catholic Church is big on confessing sin, but not big on repentance. Confessing sins to a priest does not get us absolved from those sins and it does not break the cycle of sin. Once Christ has truly saved you, you need only go to Him daily to confess and receive forgiveness. And, He (not a priest) gives you power to turn from sin. You can’t stop sinning on your own. That, too, is a work of God. The Bible teaches first, Justification –we are saved from our sins and washed clean- and then Sanctification. After we become Christians, God works in us (as we pray, read His Word faithfully every day, and seek the infilling of the Holy Spirit) to makes us holy. So we sin less and less and our lifestyle becomes more pleasing to God as we walk with Him. That is our desire when we are truly saved. Our hearts yearn to please God and to strive for holiness in our daily walk with Him.
I know the thing today is not to ‘judge’ what others believe. If you do that, you are accused of being judgmental, legalistic. But, what I have described to you is not legalism. (Real legalism is salvation by works –doing certain things to gain acceptance by God.) All roads do not lead to God. There is one WAY –few are those who find it. I pray you will be one of those who does. Put aside all your prejudices and ingrained ways of seeing things. Open the Word for yourself and seek asking God to show you and I will be praying for you. If you wish to discuss this further with me, I would be happy to continue the conversation. You can email me at: http://www.wearymom2003@yahoo.com.
It’s funny Rose. Your last paragraph I would say “Ditto to you.” I’ve never said what they believe is wrong. It’s how they apply it to others.
Oops! I meant wearymom2003@yahoo.com -not the www part. (I have been on here too long tonight!) Don’t look at ‘others’. Look to God, the truth he has given you in His Word. People will disappoint you, but God never will.
Rose,
‘People will disapoint you, but God never will’….AMEN to that!
So, in other words, Joe, when you say “Love the gay person who wants the legal right to get married”, you’re not saying help them make their lifestyle a legal right? What you say “Be kind to the Lesbian who wants to adopt”, you don’t mean helping them adopt?
Because, Joe, when you go on like you did, saying things like that, without giving any clarity to what you mean, it really seems like you’re saying “The only kind of love you can show them is to support them in what they’re doing”.
Because when you start out lambasting people who say “It’s in the Bible”, claiming the Bible can be used to defend any position anyone wants it to, and that “At the end of the day the only thing that really matters is what kind of fruit your doctrine and theology produces” (as you define such fruit, of course), then I tend to smell something going on that just ain’t right.
Jazz,
So you too are a “Biblical Universalist”? I didn’t know that. I mean to say that guy is wrong I must be lambasting him, right?
Or maybe you assumed what you wanted to assume because you feel you have me figured out because I write here and at .info? I mean I know lots of people who know me who didn’t come anywhere near the conclusions you came to Jazz. Maybe it’s not the lack of clarity, maybe it’s the abundance of assumptions.
Shall we take this further? Sure.
http://christianresearchnetwork.info/2008/02/19/the-sexuality-obcession
There’re no numbers on the comments, so I can’t say something like “look at comment 42”, but the comments that I’m taking from are under you name, Joe, and are pretty early in the rather heated debate.
“Here’s something to consider; I don’t care if they make homosexual marriage legal. How much of the sex police do we want to be.”
“I believe that laws are necessary. I believe that laws should stop us from hurting other people. So if two gay people wish to engage in a relationship, that is (constitutionally speaking) their business…It’s pretty simple, if you are hurting someone else it should be illegal. I think that is very practical and compassionate. There are many things that I believe are Biblically wrong but I don’t want to see a law passed about them.”
btw I find it ironic that you refer to the Constitution, when earlier you said this…
” As far as you having “rights” in a democratic society. Go back and re-read your Bible, you’re not called to live in your rights. Just my 2 cents.”
Here are some things you said here, Joe.
http://christianresearchnetwork.info/2008/02/19/the-sexuality-obcession
–Here’s something to consider; I don’t care if they make homosexual marriage legal. How much of the sex police do we want to be.–
–I believe that laws are necessary. I believe that laws should stop us from hurting other people. So if two gay people wish to engage in a relationship, that is (constitutionally speaking) their business…It’s pretty simple, if you are hurting someone else it should be illegal. I think that is very practical and compassionate. There are many things that I believe are Biblically wrong but I don’t want to see a law passed about them.–
You still didn’t answer the questions, Joe. Here they are again.
So, in other words, Joe, when you say “Love the gay person who wants the legal right to get married”, you’re not saying help them make their lifestyle a legal right? What you say “Be kind to the Lesbian who wants to adopt”, you don’t mean helping them adopt?
I mean be kind. What does it mean to be kind in your world? I mean love them. What does it mean to love in your world. I Corinthians 13 is a wonderful place to start.
Why do you tie love and kindness to a law?
Jazz,
I also talked about the person more conservative and liberal than you or me. Why did you home in on these two sentences. If I said, yes, I think constitutionally they should be allowed does the make our mandate to love them and be kind to them different?
–I mean be kind. What does it mean to be kind in your world? I mean love them. What does it mean to love in your world. I Corinthians 13 is a wonderful place to start.–
Which means…what? Come on, Joe, come out and say it, does loving the gay man who wants to legalize gay marriage means helping him legalize it, or does it mean working against him in that goal? Does loving the lesbian couple wanting to adopt mean helping them adopt, or does it mean working against them for the sake of the child?
–If I said, yes, I think constitutionally they should be allowed does the make our mandate to love them and be kind to them different?–
No, but it may mean that acts you or I consider “loving” and “christlike” are very different.
So the U.S. constitution now decides what is sin and what isn’t? I”m confused, I thought we were talking about loving someone and/or encouraging them to sin. How many Biblical sins do you wish to see become illegal, Jazz? Maybe we need to set up a masturbation police and maybe the government can dictate what positions you and your spouse engage in your own bedroom?
Where do we draw that line? I’m not bringing politics into this, you are, but I do have these questions. If a Lesbian couple needed a ride to work would you help them out? If they needed money to pay their heating bills would you help them out? If a gay man’s house burnt down would you give him food? Please answer these last questions or I will be forced to assume that you do not have any intention of honest debate.
What if I said we should stay out of the political side of it all together? That we should focus on acts of love and kindness and let the Politicians sort that other stuff out?
— Please answer these last questions or I will be forced to assume that you do not have any intention of honest debate.–
Honest debate? Joe, considering that 1. My questions were asked first and 2. You still have not answered them, you are really in no position to make such a statement.
–I’m not bringing politics into this, you are,–
You were the one who mentioned people wanting to legalize gay marriage and lesbians wanting to adopt. Sorry, but you really are the one who brought politics into this.
–So the U.S. constitution now decides what is sin and what isn’t?–
And I said that–where?
–Where do we draw that line?–
Where do you?
–What if I said we should stay out of the political side of it all together?–
I’d laugh.
Jazz,
It appears we disagree on the course of this conversation. You brought politics into it. I brought people groups into it. I don’t discuss politics in public, so you are correct I have avoided answering your questions and will continue to do so. I am trying to understand how you read something about love and kindness and immediately go to politics. Your questions have nothing to do with loving someone or being kind to them which is what the original article was driving at, which is why I included other people groups–those more conservative or liberal than you or I.
You had/have an agenda, which is OK. You zeroed in one point of the article in attempt to slander me and the entire article. Again, that is your prerogative. I think we can talk about love and kindness without bringing politics into the discussion.
How we vote never entered my mind when I wrote the original article. My point was everyone can use (mis-use) the Bible to support their view as per the “Biblical Universalist” in the original. I hope this clarifies my thoughts more clearly for you. If you are looking for answer as to how I view the political situation, I apologize but I will not be giving you an answer. Feel free to draw whatever conclusions that you want from that. I will say that my hope in seeing people change from their sinful ways has nothing to do with Jesus and everything to do with a loving God who changes lives. He changes the lives of all sinners, not just those that seem to be in the most egregious violation of Scripture.
Grace and Peace to you.
I imagine you’ll want the last word, it is yours, unless I need to clarify something more.
Jazz,
Did Jesus love people regardless of there sin? I think he if you research the New Testament you will find, hands down, that he did. The tax collector, considered an out cast in Jesus day, what did Jesus do? Matthew 9:11. It seems the only people questing his actions were people like you. Instead he invited himself to his house for dinner! She let a prostitute wash his feet! When questioned he chewed out the person doing the questing. Matthew 12 it appears Jesus is accused of breaking another rule by doing something on the Sabbath. Again the only people questing his actions are the Pharisees.
To answer your question, If I want to be a imitator of Christ Jesus than hands down, I will love the lesbian, I will love the abortionist. Joe is simply talking about loving someone not condoning their sin but you had better believe if a homosexual wanted to eat in my home or a girl who just had an abortion wanted to eat at my house the door would be open and I would cook them the best meal I could make. Jesus, if you look at these passages, just simply loved! Love covers a multitude of sin. Some how these sins Joe brought up evoked some sort of response from you that is not biblical at all and I am not sure how to help you.
One last thought. You said this “No, but it may mean that acts you or I consider “loving” and “christlike” are very different.
No, the bible pretty clearly defines how we should treat everyone.
Let me pipe in and give my nickels worth.
I believe that you can love the gay person and still not condone their sexual preferences or gay marriage for that matter.
Having had someone close to me in my family that is gay, I know what it means to love them while still not condoning their chosen lifestyle.
And for the record…I believe that it is our duty to be involved politically.
🙂
–It appears we disagree on the course of this conversation. You brought politics into it.–
Joe, I will say it again, no, I didn’t. You did. Whether you think you did or not, you did. You could have phrased your statements in ways that were non-political, but because you did use examples that were political in nature, then you brought politics into it.
–I am trying to understand how you read something about love and kindness and immediately go to politics.–
I am trying to see how you can mention gays people wanting to legalize gay marriage and lesbians wanting to adopt, and not see how those statements are political.
–Your questions have nothing to do with loving someone or being kind to them which is what the original article was driving at,–
Yes, they do.
Love is such a misused word that simply using on it’s own is essentially meaningless. A man may tell a woman he loves her solely to get her in bed. Some political schmuck may say that their organization supports a pro-gay marriage agenda because “God is love and does not judge”.
So, when you make a political statement, I read it as such. As I have asked, though, if I have misunderstood you, you are welcome to correct me. I have made mistakes before, and am ready and willing to apologize if I have been mistaken.
Yes, he brought up two points that could be made political but the context in which he uses them have nothing to with politics! Was Jesus trying make things political when he shares the story of Daniel being thrown in the lions dens? Prayer was out lawed by the government. Is that the point of the story? Is Jesus trying to make it a political point when he says this “What shall we conclude then? Are we any better[a]? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.” Is Jesus being political? When Jesus sat at the well talking to the Samaritan women which was a huge political issue of the day. Was He bringing that story up to get into a political debate? What about not eating meat sacrificed to animals? Did he bring that up to discuss politics?
NO, if you look at any of these examples and think the point in Jesus bring them up was to engage in political discussion than you have missed the point. It is much like this post, Joe is addressing issues of are day that might cause people to think they don’t have to love or reach out to “that person” if you think it is brought up to be a political discussion than you have missed the point of what Jesus was saying much like this post. What people consider to be political issues is the world in which we live. Joe was trying to make a beautiful point about how those people are sometimes the hardest people for Christians to love and he dares you to love them! What if he said he dared you to love the special needs person, in whom some people despise and mistreat, would the whole post than be about politics? Just a few years ago there was the whole Terry Shiavo case! You can read into the post all you want. The simply point is love others and make your life show the fruits of the spirit or the theology you spit out of your mouth is pointless!
Jazz,
I’ve read what I wrote 100 times and I don’t see where I said anything about legalizing gay marriage or lesbians adopting being ok with me. I said that we need to love those people who have those desires. I wasn’t condoning or negating those desires, I was simply acknowledging they exist.
Jazz,
Erica has a good point. If I had said, “Love the girl who has had and who wants to have more abortions” would you have assumed I want to make abortion legal?
First, my apologies for not responding sooner.
Ok, for the record, my own views are very much like what Jimmy says here.
–I believe that you can love the gay person and still not condone their sexual preferences or gay marriage for that matter.–
Erica, correct me if I’ve misunderstood things, but isn’t it a common thing in some emergent churches to try to point out how the words of Jesus and the apostles were political in some kind of subversive way? That’s the impression I’ve gotten from reading and listening to thing they’ve put out.
Very well, Joe, you’ve convinced me. I was wrong, and I do apologize. I did make a conclusion that wasn’t soundly based on what was said.
Apologies accepted all around.
Jazz,
I simply don’t know. I am not emergent maybe emerging so I am not real familiar with what the emergent church movement believes or what the convey. I would say Jesus did not try to be political but to me politics has vastly different connotations so I am not sure! How is that for an answer!lol
I am not real sure what the Emergents believe! I have yet to receive a clear definition. So at this point I would not consider myself Emergent. To answer your question- I simply do not know! I don’t think Jesus did everything for a political response I think he simply lived life and loved and that was made out to be political. Does that make sense?
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check out a great blog http://unveilingchristianity.wordpress.com 😉
So Ibn Anwar….read a little of your blog. I have to say that I found it ‘reaching’ just a bit.
HEY GUYS
REMEMBER MATTHEW 5:48……YOU ARE TO BE PERFECT AS YOUR FATHER IS PERFECT. AS WE ARE BORN AGAIN WE ALSO MUST ENDURE TO THE END , RUN THE RACE IN THE HOPE OF SALVATION. TO BE IN CHRIST IS MUCH MORE THAN JUST BELIEF. REPENTANCE IS THE FIRST AND FORMOST IN SANCTIFICATION.
AMEN
Dude…what exactly is your point here?
To Doucare: Maybe if you spent time looking for the TRUTH, The Love of God would be revealed to you. Most of your Point seems to be full of misunderstanding of the very Book that can help save your life. Truth will set you free………….not this mission of hatred you seem to be on. I really do hope that you can find it (TRUTH).
I ask people for proof of God and they say “Our world is perfect for us! An intelligent being must have created it because it is so fitted for humankind.” … but if it wasn’t perfect for us we wouldn’t be here to argue about it anyway! If space really does go on forever, which I believe it does, than surely somewhere out there there is a planet sustaining life – which happens to be us. If you can’t already tell I am a strong atheist. There is next to nothing that supports the belief. Think about it, religion was born many years ago when human intelligence and understanding was low, religions, beliefs and superstitions was at it’s peak, and we needed a reason for everything. Because our mind wasn’t as developed as it is now, people pointed towards someone as the cause. Just like a tribe leader. They needed a leader, someone who would command over everything.
I myself was born into a Christian family. My grandparents and relatives were all strong Christian – with the exception of my mother and father. I think if they weren’t so distant from “God” I would have been deluded forever. When I hit upper – primary and began to learn of evolution, science and history I saw my foolish ways and stopped being Christian, and I’ve never believed ever since.
Rhianna, two things: where do we get accountability, and how did the whole concept of Law come to us?
Rhianna,
You lost me on the whole space goes on forever because I believe it does. Where’s your evidence for that one, and especially for your conclusion?
Accountabiliy? Are you serious. Some of you people need to educate yourselves. Anyone that has studied basic psychology can answer that, Social Norms. Social Norms are a set of behavioural models and rules that are assimilated within a society. In other words, they are handed down over thousands of years as acceptable behavior within the group. Law and accountability are derived by Social Norms not some invisible entity that speaks from burning bushes and donkeys.
“Theologians can persuade themselves of anything.”
Robert A. Heinlein
Its amazing how religion has brainwashed people into acting like they believe suck non-sense. Funny thing is, is when someone makes a logical argument they won’t touch it. But if someone says one curse word or even raises they’re voice they’re all over it
WOW. That was some serious beef. I mean that as both gripe and substance.
The truth about it is that if you are a believer, and you are touched by the Spirit then it’s less likely that these kinds of “inconsistencies” will bother you, and if you’re not, what do you care anyway? I mean, I guess if you feel oppressed by people of faith, and you may well be, then you could be on a mission to discredit us in general, but otherwise, what is that? A hobby?
When people hit me with this kind of stuff, I always ask them where they got the idea that God was supposed to be consistent. Know any people who are always consistent? We are supposedly created in His image, and I should think that doesn’t just include the high points. Seems to me that the Lord is pretty arbitrary, sometimes random, occasionally cranky, and He’s been known to change His mind, notably when dealing with a particular stiff-necked and argumentive people He seems very fond of. But He also values justice, and values mercy over justice (hallelujah!), and values love over all.
Ummm… and not to be snippy or hair-splitting, but,
“…Think about it, religion was born many years ago when human intelligence and understanding was low, religions, beliefs and superstitions was at it’s peak, and we needed a reason for everything….”
This is mixing your evolution with your anthropology and crashing it into your world history. This explanation of the ascendancy of religion discounts the historical and contemporary accounts of personal experience of the Spirit that millions of people have every day. People believe not just because they were told, not just as a factoid–like the earth was flat and we all learned better– but because of individual and personal experiences, regardless of culture or geography. Now, in statistics, that kind of a consistently recurring quantity of anecdotal first-hand accounts is generally regarded as “significant evidence” of … anything. Just sayin’…