“Because The Bible Says So…”:Stupid Things Christians Say

Recently I had a conversation with a friend of mine about how it irks me the way people debate over theological issues. The debate doesn’t bother me. If you can find people who don’t take the debate personal, then you can have a great conversation. Too often people get too fired up when they are discussing things. Just last week I had to call a guy and say, “I’m sorry.” And just to get this out of the way, this post has nothing to do with the person I called. I hate it when people say something like, “Well, I believe this because the Bible says it” or “I believe this way because it is the most Biblical way to view the issue.” The implied message is that if you don’t believe what it is they’re saying that somehow you–the heretic–don’t really love God on the same level that they do. You–the moron–don’t really know how to properly read your Bible. The Baptists use this argument to prove that their way is right. Most of the time they’re even willing to use this method to denounce other Baptists, which is why you have “free will baptists” and “southern Baptists” and “independent baptists” and “regular baptists” and “American baptists.” Someone once told me that there are 138 different baptist flavors. All 138 of them are holding a line, they are opening their Bible and slamming their finger down on a verse and saying, “See, it says it right here!
I
am
right!”

My friend seemed to want to have sympathy for me. He was also sympathetic to the view I was decrying. That is one of the things I appreciate about our conversations. We disagree and most of the time he doesn’t walk away questioning my character because we disagree. He said something to the effect of well, that’s the normal argument for that position. I told him I knew that but I get tired of the Bible being used as the final shock and awe weapon to win the battle. I just don’t believe that when God wrote this love letter He intended for us to use it as a battering ram to win arguments. Anybody can claim that what they believe is backed by the Bible. Anybody can say their way is the most Biblical way. They are the one’s defending the truth. Heck, there is an even a Blog where some one has decided to call themselves the “Keepers of Christ’s Truth.” They tell us, Right now, Truth is under attack, and much is at stake.” So I just want to get this strait: The same God who created the entire universe, who has kept the Bible preserved through countless attacks. The same God who reconciled all men to Himself through the sacrificial death, burial and resurrection of His Son needs some guy with a BLOG to defend the Truth? That’s retarded. That goes beyond any sane, reasonable train of thought. It bugs me to no end.

What does this have to do with my opening? Recently after reading a certain author I googled his name. I found this quote by a “critic” on one of the pages.

“Michael, I’m what’s called a Biblical Universalist [sic]…I didn’t just decide universalism was a nice concept (emotionalism as it is frequently described. I found it to be the truth of the Bible. My study started with trying to prove that Annihilation (the doctrine that God puts out of existence all those who reject Him)was true and Eternal Torment was false…I was more than a little surprised to discover they were both false.

Please don’t miss what he said because you disagree with what he said. He said that he believes what he believes because
it
is
found
in
the
Bible.
He’s convinced he’s right and he has Bible verses to back him up. You’re wrong he’s right. It’s that simple. He’s just using the Bible. Now, most of the regular readers here are already thinking of verses and comebacks to prove that he’s wrong. There are some hate mongers who, if this guy’s first name was Doug and his last name rhymed with Racket or if he shared Robert Redford’s first name and the Liberty Bell’s last name, would be putting together hate posts where they would cross link to each other like West Virginia cousins in love and decry him a heretic. Why? He just believes what he believes based on the Bible?

So what? Can we not believe anything? Is everything up for grab? No, I don’t believe so, but I do have a fairly simple litmus test that I will put you through before I choose to listen to your words. That litmus test is simple really. I want to know do you have any of the following in your life?

Love
Joy
Peace
Patience
Kindness
Goodness
Faithfulness
Self Control.

Why aren’t these things listed as the litmus test of our faith. If what you are trying to tell me is of the Spirit it should have these qualities to it. If it doesn’t then it is suspect. I DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOUR DOCTRINE if you do not have these in your life. Your doctrine is as relevant to my life as the NBA. Feel free to fight for the faith, feel free to write hit pieces about Godly men. I hope it makes you feel better. Feel free to anonymously protest me speaking at your camp and hide behind your authority. Feel free to threaten people below you. Feel free to continue not looking like Christ. It’s Ok, you don’t have to earn God’s love. He forgives you for the mistakes you made in that first marriage. You won’t cause God to love you more by being hateful. He doesn’t need you defending His truth. He did just fine before you and I were ever even a hormone inside our parents, He’ll keep doing fine long after our bodies are nothing more than dust in the bottom of a wood box encased in a cement box with six feet of dirt on our heads.

Take all that energy and try to live these things out. Love the gay person who wants the legal right to get married. I dare you. Be kind to the Lesbian who wants to adopt. Be patient with all the liberals. I know, “I’m just spewing social gospel now.” But I’m telling you, you’re not going to impact me all that much without these things in your life. You won’t impact anyone. God won’t be impressed.
I guarantee you I can find someone who disagrees with most of your faith and does so because they believe they have the Bible to stand on. They’ll be willing to say that you just aren’t reading it right, or you’re interpretation is skewed.

Sometimes, it cracks me up two opposing sides will be using the same verse. At the end of the day the only thing that really matters is what kind of fruit your doctrine and theology produces and everyone’s Bible says this list is fruit born of the Spirit.

So I say Grace and Peace to all the Haters. Haters are on both sides of issues. I say to you, Love. Love your neighbors, love your enemies, love those more conservative than you. Love those more liberal than you. Love Barrack, and Hillary. Love McCain. Love Ken Silva and Ingrid Schluetter.

Love God and Love the World. Please just don’t expect me to come running to your view because you have the Bible on your side. Please don’t expect me to give you credence because you believe your way is the most Biblical. Especially, if you’re focusing more on someone looking like you than you are on your trying to look more like this list.
Grace and Peace

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I am a simple guy. I live in West Michigan and have a counseling business. I also do public speaking. I'd love to hear your story.

71 thoughts on ““Because The Bible Says So…”:Stupid Things Christians Say

  1. I was brought up Catholic, my sister and brother were born again and I am born again as well (after months of ministry from my sister). My brother who is born again is now a baptist minister (which sect, I’m not sure, a right wing sect).

    I thought to myself, as a freshman in high school, there was no difference between the two, we both belived Christ died for our sins and that was the key. As I got older they seemed to let me know the differences. Especially the fact you had to be “born again”.

    Many years later, as my mother was dying, my brother used his daughter to try to get my mother to be born again. My mother saw no need. Letters, visits and more letters, but even on her death bed she held her ground.

    Let’s just say my brother’s children were quite downtrodden at the funeral as “grandma isn’t in heaven” as they so firmly believed.

    Well, if she didn’t go I haven’t a prayer to get in.

    I will give my brother a lot of credit in a lot of areas, but flexibility is not a strength of his church.

    He did get my grandmother to believe on her deathbed, but she hadn’t been to church – EVER.

  2. There have bee na few posts around lately about the inability to dicuss real feelings and attitudes and beliefs because we have different definitions of truth, or different perspectives and takes on the scriptures. We generally get too bogged down in “what I see” rather than “what we see”. Good post, good rant.

  3. Joe,

    Great post…it has become my new favorite.

    This post reminds me of Matthew 22:36-40
    “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

    Amen!

  4. I’m kind of hurt, Ken linked here but he left out much of the Scripture I used in the post. You’d almost think he doesn’t think he needs any of that list up there or that he has an axe to grind.

  5. One might think that Mr. Silva has the fruit of another spirit on him after meandering around his site.

  6. Yeah, Man
    I saw you just called but I was on the work line. I was just going to tell you about our link love from Ken. See how life was. I’ll call you later today if you go time.

  7. Sure bro…call me anytime. The number I called you from is my new cell number.

    Funny thing…the old number you had is now an old friend of mine’s new number. How weird is that?

    He called my wife today and told her you called.

    Talk to you later!

  8. “I’m kind of hurt, Ken linked here but he left out much of the Scripture I used in the post.”

    Uh what scripture?
    Oh you must mean the parapharse you offered.
    I do love you and pray your conversion and the comvertsion of all at
    .(bad)info everyday.
    I am serious.

  9. Chris P,
    What version of the bible do you recommended as being most accurate than? You do believe all scripture is inspired right and preserved through all generations!

  10. “I hate it”

    You seem to have a lot of anger about people who don’t want to talk the way you do, just like Silva and others.

    Be careful friend. I find it easy to throw stones of love just as much as stones of judgment.

  11. I commend you for wanting to see fruit of the Spirit (which is a means for judging people-something about you will know them by their fruit) you seemed to gloss over the fact that a lot of God’s truth was put under attack from the very start of Church history. Whether is was the legalist’s Paul dealt with Galatians (He wrote a book just to correct them) or Athanasius defending the Trinity, St. Augustine defending Christianity itself with his book the City of God, or Luther defending the gospel, indeed God has raised people to defend his truth. The bible we read today comes to us because of people who died (some tortured and put in prison) for translating it into the language of the masses.
    As for party lines, Tim Keller in his latest book talks about how every group has it’s lines. While we can get into very nuanced lines at times, there are a few places that aren’t just lines on the sand, they literally are set in stone. To cross them would be at our own peril.

  12. Hey Joe,
    I also found this through Ken’s Site. Someone the other day asked me why I keep people that do nothing but irritate me with their “unbiblical” approach to disagreements (how’s that?). It really irritates me that he can post w/e he wants and has not accountability b/c he has not comments section.
    anywho,
    my answer was that although I despise what Ken embodies (the very type of people that you mention in this post, and I’m using him as an example of the endless amount of people that I run across like the people you describe), his site is a GREAT place to find quality pieces like yours. So I thank Ken publicly for posting this link.

    Your frustration and passion come through well. I think this is a timely piece that I hope others won’t miss. I am going to link this from my blog so that other readers may find, read, and hear God speak through your words. I am with you, I don’t care if they agree with EVERYTHING you said or quoted, I hope that they are overtaken by the SPIRIT of unity that you convey!

    thanks for your words man!
    peace
    justin

  13. …”we both believed Christ died for our sins and that was the key.” Dom, I ,too, was Catholic-very Catholic-attending Catholic schools right up through college. I also thought, as a Catholic, since I believed Christ died for my sin, I would go to heaven. But I was also trusting in works as that is what the Catholic Church teaches -not just Christ’s death for our sins but that in conjunction with good works. But the Bible says salvation is by grace alone not of works lest any man should boast. I was truly born again when I came to understand that there is nothing I could ever do to save myself. It is a gift of God. Works count for nothing. If someone dies trusting in works PLUS Jesus, that is not salvation. Catholics, if they truly believe what their church doctrine teaches them, are not saved. My mother, grandparents, and many other relatives-all very religious- died without truly being saved. It is not sincerity which saves us-it is right belief and that come from the Bible. Catholic don’t typically read the Bible. They have it read to them. Once I started to read the Bible for myself, then my eyes were opened to the true gospel message of Jesus Christ. What the Bible says IS important. We should not use it to hammer people over the head, but to lovingly direct them to the truth. Without the truth, many will perish. As a former Catholic and one gloriously, miraclously saved by grace, the Bible is everything to me now and I thank God for it

  14. We didn’t believe the works of the catholic church was our salvation. The whole grace thing was not our salvation. Jesus was our salvation. We believe Christ died on the cross for our sins, something we got from the Bible. We believed in his miracles, something we got from the Bible. DO NOT stereo type Catholics, that is simple minded and narrow minded.

    Even if you go with the whole grace thing, they still believe what…let me hear you now…Christ died on the cross for our sins so we can be saved.

    Don’t tell me one paraphrase is better than the other or the context is different one way or another.

    If you want to get literal, please give up all of your possessions and follow Christ.

    I’m sorry for the angst, don’t read anything into it, it’s real angst.

  15. Great article Joe, found it over at VerumSerum. It’s spot-on!

    At the end of the day, how you went about your day is what counts. Speaking a verse about loving your neighbor does nothing, but grabbing a hold of their trashcan and dragging it up to their gate does.

    Thanks again for writing this.

  16. Dom, I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I was not speaking of the works of The Cathlic Church in my post to you. What the Catholic Chursh teaches is that a person obtains salvation (heaven) by doing good works in his lifetime AND by believing in Christ’s sacrifice. That is totally contrary to Scripture. (And, believe me, I do know what the Catholic Church teaches because I went to Catholic schools all the way through to college.) It is a ‘works plus Jesus’ salvation. But, according to Scripture, we must trust in nothing else but Christ’s sacrifice -all our good works are as filthly rags and count for nothing. And, it isn’t just ‘believing that Christ died for our sins’ that saves us either. It is taking hold of that truth by repenting of our sins, turning from them, realizing we are wretched and have nothing to offer God-throwing ourselves on His mercy and accepting His free gift of salvation which is by grace alone. That is so much more than just believing Jesus died for our sins. We have to apply it to ourselves personally. This is something I never did all those years I was a Catholic because I was never told I needed to do it. It was always: ‘Just do good works and believe in Jesus’- but that is not what the Bible teaches. I am not stereo-typing Catholics. I am telling you (in love) the truth of what they believe and it is not true salvation. There is only one way to be saved and that is through Christ alone -by His grace, never by works that we do. Read Romans and Ephesians and what I am saying will become clear to you. This is why the Bible is so important -it guides us to the truth -it IS God’s truth. I am not trying to win an argument with you, but am in love, trying to lead you to understand the true gospel. There are many false gospels today and a great lack of Bible literacy. Once I read the Bible for myself, the scales fell off my eyes. I found the true way of salvation. I pray you will find it, too. May God guide you into His glorious truth.

  17. One more thing, Dom. As a former Catholic, I know it is hard (almost unthinkable) to let go of a reglious system like Catholicism -it is a generational thing, a family thing and so much more. I am third generation Italian (my Dad’s name is Dom! :-). My grandparents came here from the Old Country and the Catholic Church and its teachings were ingrained in me and as much as part of my life as all the other wonderful and special things we enjoyed as grandchildren of Italian immigants. I loved the rituals, the Latin Mass, the Stations of the Cross. I was very religious -almost entered the convert after high school. In fact, I would be the LAST person anyone would ever think would leave the Catholic Church. But I came to a place in my life where things just were not working. When I was just about as low as I could go and contemplating suicide, something I had read in a book by Norman Vincent Peale came alive to me. I don’t even recall what the book was about. But one sentence in that book changed me life – that Jesus Christ died for me, personally. Suddenly, I knew what Christ had done -paid a price I could never pay. I got down on my knees that day and confessed my sin (in a way I had never done in a confessional), and purposed in my heart to turn from it. I prayed long and hard like I had never prayed before in my life. When I got up, I knew something had changed. I felt like I had been washed clean from the inside. I knew without a doubt I had been born again yet I had never even heard that expression. That was 34 years ago and I have never looked back. And it just gets sweeter and sweeter. There is so much more God has for us – it is there for the asking. The (true) gospel offends, it shakes us up, turns us upside down, but rewards us, if we heed it, with new life from above. I have enjoyed conversing with you and wish you the best.

  18. I understand where you’re coming from Rose, believe me. I know what the Catholic Church teaches and stands for. I understand that it’s more than a belief that Christ died for our sins.

    I believe the Bible is the key, but I don’t believe any one MAN’s inturpretation of it literally. That’s where a personal relationship with God can develop.

    You can’t use the Bible like a throem in Geometry to prove what you want, because if you could you could prove just about anything.

    I am relfective and personally involved with Christ. I believe my parents are more in touch with the concept of God and I believe it is personal and reflective.

    Add that to their belief in Christ, doing good deeds and can I ask, since I haven’t been to a Catholic Church in over 15 years (outside my Mom’s funeral) do Cahtolics NOT believe in repenting?

    I know they are big on confession of sins, but the simple acknowledgement of them isn’t enough I know, but sitting there waiting to talk to the priest I know I was thinking about ways to stop myself from ever doing some of those things again were running through my mind.

    I would ask my brother (and sister, who converted him from Catholicism to being a Baptist in college), “You mean all I have to do is say ‘I want to be born again’ and I’m going to heaven?” Sounded too simple and that wasn’t the case, but that’s what I was led to believe.

    I’m not a big fan of symantics and too often that’s what we argue about.

    Just be carefull making assumptions on what people believe based on what religion they are part of.

  19. Dom,
    Why would God write us a letter, the Bible, (to give us directions on how to obtain eternal life) and then make it so that no one could understand for sure what it means? Why would He do that? (That doesn’t sound like a loving God to me.) If it can means many different things to different people, how would anyone know for sure what God expects of us –how He intends to save us? The Bible is not only true, it can be understood by all people-everywhere. God, through the power of His Holy Spirit, will enlighten your mind to understand it if you come to study it with sincere desire to know God’s will. It isn’t as deep and difficult as you are making it out to be. The gospel message is so simple and plain, a child can grasp it. It is not easy the believism, though, that many espouse today –say a prayer, accept Christ, you are (presto, chango) a Christian-now you can just go do your thing and live any way you want and you will go to heaven. Many people who think they are ‘born again’ today are not. Real salvation is true repentance and turning away from sin, taking Christ as Lord and Savior, dying to self and living the rest of your life for Him, to follow His will, crucifying the flesh daily. And that is the hard part, but He gives us the grace.
    This is what I hear you implying in your post: the Bible is too hard to understand, no one can interpret it or know for sure what it means, no one interpretation is correct, it’s meaning is relative –different things to different people, all religions are valid. Basically, what people want to believe today is that God can be reached by many paths –we can all come to God any way we feel is right for us personally and He will accept us. We can be our own little gods and decide for ourselves how to reach heaven. But, my friend, that is an evil lie of the enemy. God clearly spelled it out in His Word –how to be saved from the wrath to come. We are all sinners and God is perfect. He cannot allow even one sin into heaven. All sin will be judged. No one is good enough to go to heaven. No matter how caring/loving they appear to us to be, God sees the heart and sees the sin-as all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But, God in His great mercy, made a way by sending His Son who was without sin to take our sin upon Himself, to take our punishment for it, to die and be raised up so that we, too, can be raised and have a home in heaven. Oh, there ARE parts of the Bible that people can debate about and come up with different ideas. But, the central part – this thing of salvation- is laid out so plainly in Scripture, a child can get it! Dom, have you really read the Scriptures-the New Testament especially? Don’t listen to what people say –go to God’s Word. Read for yourself asking God to help you. He will. He wants you to know that you can know FOR SURE what He says. His truth is not relative, it is absolute. Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life and NO MAN comes to the Father but by me.” (How many different ways can someone interpret that?-pretty straight forward, isn’t it?) And that is not just believing Christ died for your sin. You say you are “reflective and personally involved with Christ” –what does that mean? Does it mean you are not trusting in your good works to get to heaven? That, instead, you are trusting in Christ ALONE for salvation and have forsaken sin as a lifestyle? If so, then you are saved, but I don’t think that is what you mean here. We don’t get in touch with a ‘concept of God”. He is not a concept, but a real Person. We can know Him personally, talk and walk with Him daily. He is so much more than a ‘concept’. He is a real personal God whom you can know intimately and call Him Abba, Father. The God of all this Universe, the Maker and Creator of all things, yet you can know Him and be His own son.
    You said, ‘sitting there waiting to talk to the priest I know I was thinking about ways to stop myself from ever doing some of those things again were running through my mind.’ Yes, the Catholic Church is big on confessing sin, but not big on repentance. Confessing sins to a priest does not get us absolved from those sins and it does not break the cycle of sin. Once Christ has truly saved you, you need only go to Him daily to confess and receive forgiveness. And, He (not a priest) gives you power to turn from sin. You can’t stop sinning on your own. That, too, is a work of God. The Bible teaches first, Justification –we are saved from our sins and washed clean- and then Sanctification. After we become Christians, God works in us (as we pray, read His Word faithfully every day, and seek the infilling of the Holy Spirit) to makes us holy. So we sin less and less and our lifestyle becomes more pleasing to God as we walk with Him. That is our desire when we are truly saved. Our hearts yearn to please God and to strive for holiness in our daily walk with Him.
    I know the thing today is not to ‘judge’ what others believe. If you do that, you are accused of being judgmental, legalistic. But, what I have described to you is not legalism. (Real legalism is salvation by works –doing certain things to gain acceptance by God.) All roads do not lead to God. There is one WAY –few are those who find it. I pray you will be one of those who does. Put aside all your prejudices and ingrained ways of seeing things. Open the Word for yourself and seek asking God to show you and I will be praying for you. If you wish to discuss this further with me, I would be happy to continue the conversation. You can email me at: http://www.wearymom2003@yahoo.com.

  20. It’s funny Rose. Your last paragraph I would say “Ditto to you.” I’ve never said what they believe is wrong. It’s how they apply it to others.

  21. Oops! I meant wearymom2003@yahoo.com -not the www part. (I have been on here too long tonight!) Don’t look at ‘others’. Look to God, the truth he has given you in His Word. People will disappoint you, but God never will.

  22. So, in other words, Joe, when you say “Love the gay person who wants the legal right to get married”, you’re not saying help them make their lifestyle a legal right? What you say “Be kind to the Lesbian who wants to adopt”, you don’t mean helping them adopt?

  23. Because, Joe, when you go on like you did, saying things like that, without giving any clarity to what you mean, it really seems like you’re saying “The only kind of love you can show them is to support them in what they’re doing”.

    Because when you start out lambasting people who say “It’s in the Bible”, claiming the Bible can be used to defend any position anyone wants it to, and that “At the end of the day the only thing that really matters is what kind of fruit your doctrine and theology produces” (as you define such fruit, of course), then I tend to smell something going on that just ain’t right.

  24. “ when you go on like you did, saying things like that, without giving any clarity to what you mean, it really seems like you’re saying “The only kind of love you can show them is to support them in what they’re doing”.

    Or maybe you assumed what you wanted to assume because you feel you have me figured out because I write here and at .info? I mean I know lots of people who know me who didn’t come anywhere near the conclusions you came to Jazz. Maybe it’s not the lack of clarity, maybe it’s the abundance of assumptions.

  25. Shall we take this further? Sure.

    http://christianresearchnetwork.info/2008/02/19/the-sexuality-obcession

    There’re no numbers on the comments, so I can’t say something like “look at comment 42″, but the comments that I’m taking from are under you name, Joe, and are pretty early in the rather heated debate.

    “Here’s something to consider; I don’t care if they make homosexual marriage legal. How much of the sex police do we want to be.”

    “I believe that laws are necessary. I believe that laws should stop us from hurting other people. So if two gay people wish to engage in a relationship, that is (constitutionally speaking) their business…It’s pretty simple, if you are hurting someone else it should be illegal. I think that is very practical and compassionate. There are many things that I believe are Biblically wrong but I don’t want to see a law passed about them.”

    btw I find it ironic that you refer to the Constitution, when earlier you said this…

    ” As far as you having “rights” in a democratic society. Go back and re-read your Bible, you’re not called to live in your rights. Just my 2 cents.”

  26. Here are some things you said here, Joe.

    http://christianresearchnetwork.info/2008/02/19/the-sexuality-obcession

    –Here’s something to consider; I don’t care if they make homosexual marriage legal. How much of the sex police do we want to be.–

    –I believe that laws are necessary. I believe that laws should stop us from hurting other people. So if two gay people wish to engage in a relationship, that is (constitutionally speaking) their business…It’s pretty simple, if you are hurting someone else it should be illegal. I think that is very practical and compassionate. There are many things that I believe are Biblically wrong but I don’t want to see a law passed about them.–

  27. You still didn’t answer the questions, Joe. Here they are again.

    So, in other words, Joe, when you say “Love the gay person who wants the legal right to get married”, you’re not saying help them make their lifestyle a legal right? What you say “Be kind to the Lesbian who wants to adopt”, you don’t mean helping them adopt?

  28. I mean be kind. What does it mean to be kind in your world? I mean love them. What does it mean to love in your world. I Corinthians 13 is a wonderful place to start.

  29. Jazz,
    I also talked about the person more conservative and liberal than you or me. Why did you home in on these two sentences. If I said, yes, I think constitutionally they should be allowed does the make our mandate to love them and be kind to them different?

  30. –I mean be kind. What does it mean to be kind in your world? I mean love them. What does it mean to love in your world. I Corinthians 13 is a wonderful place to start.–

    Which means…what? Come on, Joe, come out and say it, does loving the gay man who wants to legalize gay marriage means helping him legalize it, or does it mean working against him in that goal? Does loving the lesbian couple wanting to adopt mean helping them adopt, or does it mean working against them for the sake of the child?

  31. –If I said, yes, I think constitutionally they should be allowed does the make our mandate to love them and be kind to them different?–

    No, but it may mean that acts you or I consider “loving” and “christlike” are very different.

  32. So the U.S. constitution now decides what is sin and what isn’t? I”m confused, I thought we were talking about loving someone and/or encouraging them to sin. How many Biblical sins do you wish to see become illegal, Jazz? Maybe we need to set up a masturbation police and maybe the government can dictate what positions you and your spouse engage in your own bedroom?
    Where do we draw that line? I’m not bringing politics into this, you are, but I do have these questions. If a Lesbian couple needed a ride to work would you help them out? If they needed money to pay their heating bills would you help them out? If a gay man’s house burnt down would you give him food? Please answer these last questions or I will be forced to assume that you do not have any intention of honest debate.

  33. What if I said we should stay out of the political side of it all together? That we should focus on acts of love and kindness and let the Politicians sort that other stuff out?

  34. – Please answer these last questions or I will be forced to assume that you do not have any intention of honest debate.–

    Honest debate? Joe, considering that 1. My questions were asked first and 2. You still have not answered them, you are really in no position to make such a statement.

    –I’m not bringing politics into this, you are,–

    You were the one who mentioned people wanting to legalize gay marriage and lesbians wanting to adopt. Sorry, but you really are the one who brought politics into this.

    –So the U.S. constitution now decides what is sin and what isn’t?–

    And I said that–where?

    –Where do we draw that line?–

    Where do you?

    –What if I said we should stay out of the political side of it all together?–

    I’d laugh.

  35. Jazz,
    It appears we disagree on the course of this conversation. You brought politics into it. I brought people groups into it. I don’t discuss politics in public, so you are correct I have avoided answering your questions and will continue to do so. I am trying to understand how you read something about love and kindness and immediately go to politics. Your questions have nothing to do with loving someone or being kind to them which is what the original article was driving at, which is why I included other people groups–those more conservative or liberal than you or I.
    You had/have an agenda, which is OK. You zeroed in one point of the article in attempt to slander me and the entire article. Again, that is your prerogative. I think we can talk about love and kindness without bringing politics into the discussion.
    How we vote never entered my mind when I wrote the original article. My point was everyone can use (mis-use) the Bible to support their view as per the “Biblical Universalist” in the original. I hope this clarifies my thoughts more clearly for you. If you are looking for answer as to how I view the political situation, I apologize but I will not be giving you an answer. Feel free to draw whatever conclusions that you want from that. I will say that my hope in seeing people change from their sinful ways has nothing to do with Jesus and everything to do with a loving God who changes lives. He changes the lives of all sinners, not just those that seem to be in the most egregious violation of Scripture.
    Grace and Peace to you.
    I imagine you’ll want the last word, it is yours, unless I need to clarify something more.

  36. Jazz,
    Did Jesus love people regardless of there sin? I think he if you research the New Testament you will find, hands down, that he did. The tax collector, considered an out cast in Jesus day, what did Jesus do? Matthew 9:11. It seems the only people questing his actions were people like you. Instead he invited himself to his house for dinner! She let a prostitute wash his feet! When questioned he chewed out the person doing the questing. Matthew 12 it appears Jesus is accused of breaking another rule by doing something on the Sabbath. Again the only people questing his actions are the Pharisees.
    To answer your question, If I want to be a imitator of Christ Jesus than hands down, I will love the lesbian, I will love the abortionist. Joe is simply talking about loving someone not condoning their sin but you had better believe if a homosexual wanted to eat in my home or a girl who just had an abortion wanted to eat at my house the door would be open and I would cook them the best meal I could make. Jesus, if you look at these passages, just simply loved! Love covers a multitude of sin. Some how these sins Joe brought up evoked some sort of response from you that is not biblical at all and I am not sure how to help you.
    One last thought. You said this “No, but it may mean that acts you or I consider “loving” and “christlike” are very different.
    No, the bible pretty clearly defines how we should treat everyone.

  37. Let me pipe in and give my nickels worth.

    I believe that you can love the gay person and still not condone their sexual preferences or gay marriage for that matter.

    Having had someone close to me in my family that is gay, I know what it means to love them while still not condoning their chosen lifestyle.

    And for the record…I believe that it is our duty to be involved politically.
    :)

  38. –It appears we disagree on the course of this conversation. You brought politics into it.–

    Joe, I will say it again, no, I didn’t. You did. Whether you think you did or not, you did. You could have phrased your statements in ways that were non-political, but because you did use examples that were political in nature, then you brought politics into it.

    –I am trying to understand how you read something about love and kindness and immediately go to politics.–

    I am trying to see how you can mention gays people wanting to legalize gay marriage and lesbians wanting to adopt, and not see how those statements are political.

    –Your questions have nothing to do with loving someone or being kind to them which is what the original article was driving at,–

    Yes, they do.

    Love is such a misused word that simply using on it’s own is essentially meaningless. A man may tell a woman he loves her solely to get her in bed. Some political schmuck may say that their organization supports a pro-gay marriage agenda because “God is love and does not judge”.

    So, when you make a political statement, I read it as such. As I have asked, though, if I have misunderstood you, you are welcome to correct me. I have made mistakes before, and am ready and willing to apologize if I have been mistaken.

  39. Yes, he brought up two points that could be made political but the context in which he uses them have nothing to with politics! Was Jesus trying make things political when he shares the story of Daniel being thrown in the lions dens? Prayer was out lawed by the government. Is that the point of the story? Is Jesus trying to make it a political point when he says this “What shall we conclude then? Are we any better[a]? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.” Is Jesus being political? When Jesus sat at the well talking to the Samaritan women which was a huge political issue of the day. Was He bringing that story up to get into a political debate? What about not eating meat sacrificed to animals? Did he bring that up to discuss politics?
    NO, if you look at any of these examples and think the point in Jesus bring them up was to engage in political discussion than you have missed the point. It is much like this post, Joe is addressing issues of are day that might cause people to think they don’t have to love or reach out to “that person” if you think it is brought up to be a political discussion than you have missed the point of what Jesus was saying much like this post. What people consider to be political issues is the world in which we live. Joe was trying to make a beautiful point about how those people are sometimes the hardest people for Christians to love and he dares you to love them! What if he said he dared you to love the special needs person, in whom some people despise and mistreat, would the whole post than be about politics? Just a few years ago there was the whole Terry Shiavo case! You can read into the post all you want. The simply point is love others and make your life show the fruits of the spirit or the theology you spit out of your mouth is pointless!

  40. I am trying to see how you can mention gays people wanting to legalize gay marriage and lesbians wanting to adopt, and not see how those statements are political

    Jazz,
    I’ve read what I wrote 100 times and I don’t see where I said anything about legalizing gay marriage or lesbians adopting being ok with me. I said that we need to love those people who have those desires. I wasn’t condoning or negating those desires, I was simply acknowledging they exist.

  41. Jazz,
    Erica has a good point. If I had said, “Love the girl who has had and who wants to have more abortions” would you have assumed I want to make abortion legal?

  42. First, my apologies for not responding sooner.

    Ok, for the record, my own views are very much like what Jimmy says here.

    –I believe that you can love the gay person and still not condone their sexual preferences or gay marriage for that matter.–

    Erica, correct me if I’ve misunderstood things, but isn’t it a common thing in some emergent churches to try to point out how the words of Jesus and the apostles were political in some kind of subversive way? That’s the impression I’ve gotten from reading and listening to thing they’ve put out.

    Very well, Joe, you’ve convinced me. I was wrong, and I do apologize. I did make a conclusion that wasn’t soundly based on what was said.

  43. Jazz,
    I simply don’t know. I am not emergent maybe emerging so I am not real familiar with what the emergent church movement believes or what the convey. I would say Jesus did not try to be political but to me politics has vastly different connotations so I am not sure! How is that for an answer!lol

  44. I am not real sure what the Emergents believe! I have yet to receive a clear definition. So at this point I would not consider myself Emergent. To answer your question- I simply do not know! I don’t think Jesus did everything for a political response I think he simply lived life and loved and that was made out to be political. Does that make sense?

  45. Pingback: On Theology « room2_blog

  46. HEY GUYS

    REMEMBER MATTHEW 5:48……YOU ARE TO BE PERFECT AS YOUR FATHER IS PERFECT. AS WE ARE BORN AGAIN WE ALSO MUST ENDURE TO THE END , RUN THE RACE IN THE HOPE OF SALVATION. TO BE IN CHRIST IS MUCH MORE THAN JUST BELIEF. REPENTANCE IS THE FIRST AND FORMOST IN SANCTIFICATION.

    AMEN

  47. Ritual Human Sacrifice in the Bible

    (Why does God want me to burn animals and humans?)

    The Bible, especially the Old Testament, is filled with numerous stories of animal and human sacrifice. God, we are told, likes the pleasing aroma of burning flesh. Animal sacrifice is much more common than human sacrifice, but both occur and are “pleasing to the Lord”.

    Genesis, the first book of the Bible, has Abraham preparing to sacrifice his son to God. “Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you.” (Genesis 22:1-18) Abraham takes his own son up on a mountain and builds an altar upon which to burn him. He even lies to his son and has him help build the altar. Then Abraham ties his son to the altar and puts a knife to his throat. He then hears God tell him this was just a test of his faith. However, God still wanted to smell some burnt flesh so he tells Abraham to burn a ram.

    Even though he didn’t kill his son, it is still an incredibly cruel and evil thing to do. If Abraham did that today he would be in jail serving a long sentence as someone’s prison-bitch. It amazes me how Christians see this story as a sign of God’s love. There is no love here, just pure unadulterated evil.

    The first seven chapters of Leviticus have extensive rules regarding animal and food sacrifices. These offerings are supposed to be burnt so that God can smell them. If you read through these it seems clear to me that the priests were getting their followers to make a big feast for them every week. The priests were very particular about what kind of food to bring and how to prepare it.

    Even more peculiar is God’s obsession with first-born sons. In Exodus 13:2 the Lord said “Consecrate to me every first-born that opens the womb among Israelites, both man and beast, for it belongs to me.” Later it says that you can redeem (replace) an ass with a sheep and that you must redeem a child for an unspecified price. It is clear from the context that “consecrate” means a burning sacrifice. These priests are guilty of theft and kidnapping. Since any sins in the Old Testament were punishable by death, these priests used the threat of death to extort food and money from their followers. What do we call a scum-bag that threatens to kill your kids unless you pay a ransom? A kidnapper! If these priests were alive today they would be in prison with Abraham.

    However, in Leviticus 27:28-29, the Lord allows for no redemptions. “Note also that any one of his possessions which a man vows as doomed to the Lord, whether it is a human being or an animal, or a hereditary field, shall be neither sold nor ransomed; everything that is thus doomed becomes most sacred to the Lord. All human beings that are doomed lose the right to be redeemed; they must be put to death.” I must admit that I am a bit confused by this contradiction, but it might only apply to slaves in your possession. Not that it makes any difference. A human sacrifice is a human sacrifice, and it is just sick.

    Bible Passages About Ritual Human Sacrifice

    Jephthah Burns His Daughter

    “At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, “If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”

    “So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith – twenty towns – and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter – his only child – ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. “My daughter!” he cried out. “My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back.” And she said, “Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin.” “You may go,” Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah’s daughter.” (Judges 11:29-40 NLT)

    God Commands Burning Humans

    [The Lord speaking] “The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel.” (Joshua 7:15 NLT)

    Josiah and Human Sacrifice

    At the LORD’s command, a man of God from Judah went to Bethel, and he arrived there just as Jeroboam was approaching the altar to offer a sacrifice. Then at the LORD’s command, he shouted, “O altar, altar! This is what the LORD says: A child named Josiah will be born into the dynasty of David. On you he will sacrifice the priests from the pagan shrines who come here to burn incense, and human bones will be burned on you.” (1 Kings 13:1-2 NLT)

    He [Josiah] executed the priests of the pagan shrines on their own altars, and he burned human bones on the altars to desecrate them. Finally, he returned to Jerusalem. King Josiah then issued this order to all the people: “You must celebrate the Passover to the LORD your God, as it is written in the Book of the Covenant.” There had not been a Passover celebration like that since the time when the judges ruled in Israel, throughout all the years of the kings of Israel and Judah. This Passover was celebrated to the LORD in Jerusalem during the eighteenth year of King Josiah’s reign. Josiah also exterminated the mediums and psychics, the household gods, and every other kind of idol worship, both in Jerusalem and throughout the land of Judah. He did this in obedience to all the laws written in the scroll that Hilkiah the priest had found in the LORD’s Temple. Never before had there been a king like Josiah, who turned to the LORD with all his heart and soul and strength, obeying all the laws of Moses. And there has never been a king like him since. (2 Kings 23:20-25 NLT)

    Human Sacrifice

    Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of himself. As gold in the furnace, he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings he took them to himself. In the time of their visitation they shall shine, and shall dart about as sparks through stubble; (Wisdom 3:5-7 NAB The Book of The Wisdom of Solomon is mostly in Catholic versions of the Bible.)

    Child Sacrifice

    And this became a hidden trap for mankind, because men, in bondage to misfortune or to royal authority, bestowed on objects of stone or wood the name that ought not to be shared. Afterward it was not enough for them to err about the knowledge of God, but they live in great strife due to ignorance, and they call such great evils peace. For whether they kill children in their initiations, or celebrate secret mysteries, or hold frenzied revels with strange customs… (Wisdom 14:21-23 RSV) The Book of The Wisdom of Solomon is mostly in Catholic versions of the Bible. This passage condemns human sacrifice but acknowledges that it did happen by early God worshipers.

    Humans are Fuel for Fire

    As for you, son of man, prophesy: Thus says the Lord GOD against the Ammonites and their insults: A sword, a sword is drawn for slaughter, burnished to consume and to flash lightning, because you planned with false visions and lying divinations to lay it on the necks of depraved and wicked men whose day has come when their crimes are at an end. Return it to its sheath! In the place where you were created, in the land of your origin, I will judge you. I will pour out my indignation upon you, breathing my fiery wrath upon you, I will hand you over to ravaging men, artisans of destruction. You shall be fuel for the fire, your blood shall flow throughout the land. You shall not be remembered, for I, the LORD, have spoken. (Ezekiel 21:33-37 NAB)

    Burn Nonbelievers

    “Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

    So the next time some Christian tells you about the “love of God”, show them this page and ask them “Why does God want me to burn animals and humans?”

    Rape In The Bible

    Rape is one of the most heinous crimes imaginable. Yet few people know that the Bible often condones and even approves of rape. How anyone can get their moral guidance from a book that allows rape escapes me. Perhaps they have been lied to about the Bible and carefully detoured around all the nasty stuff in the Bible.

    So grab your Bibles and follow along as I show you all the nasty rapes that your priests and preachers don’t want to tell you about. Note that in many places in the Bible there are references to “taking a wife”. Don’t be fooled into thinking that these were voluntary marriages. This first quote clearly shows that murder and force were used to “take” these wives.

    1) Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)

    So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin.” Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

    The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, “How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God’s curse.”

    Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, “Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, ‘Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn’t find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'” So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

    Obviously these women were repeatedly raped. These sick bastards killed and raped an entire town and then wanted more virgins, so they hid beside the road to kidnap and rape some more. How can anyone see this as anything but evil?

    2) Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

    They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

    Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. “Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

    Clearly Moses and God approves of rape of virgins.

    3) More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

    As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

    What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?

    4) Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

    If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

    What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.

    5) Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)

    If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

    It is clear that God doesn’t give a damn about the rape victim. He is only concerned about the violation of another mans “property”.

    6) David’s Punishment – Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God’s “Forgiveness” (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)

    Thus says the Lord: ‘I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.’

    Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” Nathan answered David: “The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die.” [The child dies seven days later.]

    This has got to be one of the sickest quotes of the Bible. God himself brings the completely innocent rape victims to the rapist. What kind of pathetic loser would do something so evil? And then he kills a child! This is sick, really sick!

    7) Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

    “When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive’s garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion.”

    Once again God approves of forcible rape.

    8) Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30 NAB)

    They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera’s spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)

    9) Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

    When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

    10) God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

    Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

    Murder in the Bible

    The act of murder is rampant in the Bible. In much of the Bible, especially the Old Testament, there are laws that command that people be killed for absurd reasons such as working on the Sabbath, being gay, cursing your parents, or not being a virgin on your wedding night. In addition to these crazy and immoral laws, there are plenty of examples of God’s irrationality by his direct killing of many people for reasons that defy any rational explanation such as killing children who make fun of bald people, and the killing of a man who tried to keep the ark of God from falling during transport. There are also countless examples of mass murders commanded by God, including the murder of women, infants, and children.

    The following passages are a very small percentage of the total passages approving of murder in the Bible. They are divided here into three parts: 1) Capital Punishment Crimes, 2) God’s Murders for Stupid Reasons, 3) Murdering Children, and 4) Miscellaneous Murders. This list is long, but it barely scratches the surface of all the murders approved of in the Bible.

    1) Capital Punishment Crimes:

    Kill People Who Don’t Listen to Priests

    Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

    Kill Witches

    You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

    Kill Homosexuals
    “If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

    Kill Fortunetellers

    A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

    Death for Hitting Dad

    Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

    Death for Cursing Parents

    1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

    2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

    Death for Adultery

    If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

    Death for Fornication

    A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

    Death to Followers of Other Religions

    Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

    Kill Nonbelievers

    They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

    Kill False Prophets

    If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.” When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

    Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

    Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

    Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

    But if this charge is true (that she wasn’t a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

    Kill Followers of Other Religions.

    1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

    2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

    Death for Blasphemy

    One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD’s name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother’s name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD’s will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, “Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD’s name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

    Kill False Prophets

    1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, ‘Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,’ do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

    2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.’ You may wonder, ‘How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?’ If the prophet predicts something in the LORD’s name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

    Infidels and Gays Should Die

    So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God’s death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

    Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle

    For the LORD had said to Moses, ‘Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.’ (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)

    Kill People for Working on the Sabbath

    The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: ‘Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.’ (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

    2) God’s Murders for Stupid Reasons:

    Kill Brats

    From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. “Go up baldhead,” they shouted, “go up baldhead!” The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)

    God Kills the Curious

    And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and’ fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)

    Killed by a Lion

    Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, “Strike me!” But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, “Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me.” And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)

    Killing the Good Samaritan

    The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.

    When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)

    3) Murdering Children

    Kill Sons of Sinners

    Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

    God Will Kill Children

    The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered.” O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don’t give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, “All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children.” (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

    Kill Men, Women, and Children

    “Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple.” So they began by killing the seventy leaders. “Defile the Temple!” the LORD commanded. “Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!” So they went throughout the city and did as they were told.” (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

    God Kills all the First Born of Egypt

    And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

    Kill Old Men and Young Women

    “You are my battle-ax and sword,” says the LORD. “With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. “As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem,” says the LORD. “Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy,” says the LORD. “I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out,” says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)

    (Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)

    God Will Kill the Children of Sinners

    If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)

    More Rape and Baby Killing

    Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

    4) Miscellaneous Murders

    More of Samson’s Murders

    (The Lord saves Sampson from standing trial for 30 murders and arson by allowing him to kill 1000 more men.) When he reached Lehi, and the Philistines came shouting to meet him, the spirit of the Lord came upon him: the ropes around his arms become as flax that is consumed by fire and the bonds melted away from his hands. Near him was the fresh jawbone of an ass; he reached out, grasped it, and with it killed a thousand men. (Judges 15:14-15 NAB)

    Peter Kills Two People

    There was also a man named Ananias who, with his wife, Sapphira, sold some property. He brought part of the money to the apostles, but he claimed it was the full amount. His wife had agreed to this deception. Then Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself. The property was yours to sell or not sell, as you wished. And after selling it, the money was yours to give away. How could you do a thing like this? You weren’t lying to us but to God.” As soon as Ananias heard these words, he fell to the floor and died. Everyone who heard about it was terrified. Then some young men wrapped him in a sheet and took him out and buried him. About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, “Was this the price you and your husband received for your land?” “Yes,” she replied, “that was the price.” And Peter said, “How could the two of you even think of doing a thing like this – conspiring together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Just outside that door are the young men who buried your husband, and they will carry you out, too.” Instantly, she fell to the floor and died. When the young men came in and saw that she was dead, they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear gripped the entire church and all others who heard what had happened. (Acts 5:1-11 NLT)

    Mass Murder

    This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: ‘I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.’ (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)

    You Have to Kill

    Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)

    The Danites Kill the Next Town

    But the territory of the Danites was too small for them; so the Danites marched up and attacked Leshem, which they captured and put to the sword. Once they had taken possession of Lesham, they renamed the settlement after their ancestor Dan. (Joshua 19:47 NAB)

    God Kills Some More

    Then the LORD said to me, “Even if Moses and Samuel stood before me pleading for these people, I wouldn’t help them. Away with them! Get them out of my sight! And if they say to you, ‘But where can we go?’ tell them, ‘This is what the LORD says: Those who are destined for death, to death; those who are destined for war, to war; those who are destined for famine, to famine; those who are destined for captivity, to captivity.’ “I will send four kinds of destroyers against them,” says the LORD. “I will send the sword to kill, the dogs to drag away, the vultures to devour, and the wild animals to finish up what is left. Because of the wicked things Manasseh son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, did in Jerusalem, I will make my people an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth.” (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT)

    God Promises More Killing

    I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)

    The Angel of Death

    My angel will go before you and bring you to the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, and Jebusites; and I will wipe them out. (Exodus 23:23 NAB)

    Destruction of Ai

    Then the LORD said to Joshua, “Do not be afraid or discouraged. Take the entire army and attack Ai, for I have given to you the king of Ai, his people, his city, and his land. You will destroy them as you destroyed Jericho and its king. But this time you may keep the captured goods and the cattle for yourselves. Set an ambush behind the city.” So Joshua and the army of Israel set out to attack Ai. Joshua chose thirty thousand fighting men and sent them out at night with these orders: “Hide in ambush close behind the city and be ready for action. When our main army attacks, the men of Ai will come out to fight as they did before, and we will run away from them. We will let them chase us until they have all left the city. For they will say, ‘The Israelites are running away from us as they did before.’ Then you will jump up from your ambush and take possession of the city, for the LORD your God will give it to you. Set the city on fire, as the LORD has commanded. You have your orders.” So they left that night and lay in ambush between Bethel and the west side of Ai. But Joshua remained among the people in the camp that night.

    Early the next morning Joshua roused his men and started toward Ai, accompanied by the leaders of Israel. They camped on the north side of Ai, with a valley between them and the city. That night Joshua sent five thousand men to lie in ambush between Bethel and Ai, on the west side of the city. So they stationed the main army north of the city and the ambush west of the city. Joshua himself spent that night in the valley. When the king of Ai saw the Israelites across the valley, he and all his army hurriedly went out early the next morning and attacked the Israelites at a place overlooking the Jordan Valley. But he didn’t realize there was an ambush behind the city. Joshua and the Israelite army fled toward the wilderness as though they were badly beaten, and all the men in the city were called out to chase after them. In this way, they were lured away from the city. There was not a man left in Ai or Bethel who did not chase after the Israelites, and the city was left wide open.

    Then the LORD said to Joshua, “Point your spear toward Ai, for I will give you the city.” Joshua did as he was commanded. As soon as Joshua gave the signal, the men in ambush jumped up and poured into the city. They quickly captured it and set it on fire. When the men of Ai looked behind them, smoke from the city was filling the sky, and they had nowhere to go. For the Israelites who had fled in the direction of the wilderness now turned on their pursuers. When Joshua and the other Israelites saw that the ambush had succeeded and that smoke was rising from the city, they turned and attacked the men of Ai. Then the Israelites who were inside the city came out and started killing the enemy from the rear. So the men of Ai were caught in a trap, and all of them died. Not a single person survived or escaped. Only the king of Ai was taken alive and brought to Joshua.

    When the Israelite army finished killing all the men outside the city, they went back and finished off everyone inside. So the entire population of Ai was wiped out that day – twelve thousand in all. For Joshua kept holding out his spear until everyone who had lived in Ai was completely destroyed. Only the cattle and the treasures of the city were not destroyed, for the Israelites kept these for themselves, as the LORD had commanded Joshua. So Ai became a permanent mound of ruins, desolate to this very day. Joshua hung the king of Ai on a tree and left him there until evening. At sunset the Israelites took down the body and threw it in front of the city gate. They piled a great heap of stones over him that can still be seen today. (Joshua 8:1-29 NLT)

    Killing at Jericho

    When the people heard the sound of the horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the city from every side and captured it. They completely destroyed everything in it – men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys – everything. (Joshua 6:20-21 NLT)

    God Kills an Extended Family

    “You have done more evil than all who lived before you. You have made other gods and have made me furious with your gold calves. And since you have turned your back on me, I will bring disaster on your dynasty and kill all your sons, slave or free alike. I will burn up your royal dynasty as one burns up trash until it is all gone. I, the LORD, vow that the members of your family who die in the city will be eaten by dogs, and those who die in the field will be eaten by vultures.'” Then Ahijah said to Jeroboam’s wife, “Go on home, and when you enter the city, the child will die. All Israel will mourn for him and bury him. He is the only member of your family who will have a proper burial, for this child is the only good thing that the LORD, the God of Israel, sees in the entire family of Jeroboam. And the LORD will raise up a king over Israel who will destroy the family of Jeroboam. This will happen today, even now! Then the LORD will shake Israel like a reed whipped about in a stream. He will uproot the people of Israel from this good land that he gave their ancestors and will scatter them beyond the Euphrates River, for they have angered the LORD by worshiping Asherah poles. He will abandon Israel because Jeroboam sinned and made all of Israel sin along with him.” (1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT)

    Mass Murder

    The men of Israel withdrew through the territory of the Benjaminites, putting to the sword the inhabitants of the city, the livestock, and all they chanced upon. Moreover they destroyed by fire all the cities they came upon. (Judges 20:48 NAB)

    The Angel of Death

    That night the angel of the Lord went forth and struck down one hundred and eighty five thousand men in the Assyrian camp. Early the next morning, there they were, all the corpuses of the dead. (2 Kings 19:35 NAB)

    Kill Your Neighbors

    (Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, “All of you who are on the LORD’s side, come over here and join me.” And all the Levites came. He told them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors.” The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, “Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing.” (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)

    Kill the Family of Sinners

    And Joshua said to Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession to him; and tell me now what thou hast done, hide it not from me. And Achan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the LORD God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done. When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them, and behold, they are hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it.” [Note that the sin is not looting, but failing to give the loot to the treasury of the Lord.] “So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran to the tent, and behold, it was hid in his tent, and the silver under it. And they took them from the midst of the tent, and brought them to Joshua, and to all the children of Israel, and laid them out before the LORD. And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them to the valley of Achor. And Joshua said, why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. And they raised over him a great heap of stones to this day. So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger: wherefore the name of that place was called the valley of Achor to this day. (Joshua 7:19-26 Webster’s Bible)

    Kill Followers of Other Religions

    While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD’s anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: “Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel.” So Moses ordered Israel’s judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man’s body and into the woman’s stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)

    Murder

    At the customary time for offering the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet walked up to the altar and prayed, “O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, prove today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant. Prove that I have done all this at your command. O LORD, answer me! Answer me so these people will know that you, O LORD, are God and that you have brought them back to yourself.” Immediately the fire of the LORD flashed down from heaven and burned up the young bull, the wood, the stones, and the dust. It even licked up all the water in the ditch! And when the people saw it, they fell on their faces and cried out, “The LORD is God! The LORD is God!” Then Elijah commanded, “Seize all the prophets of Baal. Don’t let a single one escape!” So the people seized them all, and Elijah took them down to the Kishon Valley and killed them there. (1 Kings 18:36-40 NLT)

    Kill All of Babylon

    “Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you,” says the LORD. “Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction”. (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

    Micah Kills a Whole Town

    Then, with Micah’s idols and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure. They attacked and killed all the people and burned the town to the ground. There was no one to rescue the residents of the town, for they lived a great distance from Sidon and had no allies nearby. This happened in the valley near Beth-rehob.Then the people of the tribe of Dan rebuilt the town and lived there. They renamed the town Dan after their ancestor, Israel’s son, but it had originally been called Laish. (Judges 18:27-29 NLT) (Note that God approves of this slaughter in verse 6.)

    Slavery in the Bible

    Except for murder, slavery has got to be one of the most immoral things a person can do. Yet slavery is rampant throughout the Bible in both the Old and New Testaments. The Bible clearly approves of slavery in many passages, and it goes so far as to tell how to obtain slaves, how hard you can beat them, and when you can have sex with the female slaves.

    Many Jews and Christians will try to ignore the moral problems of slavery by saying that these slaves were actually servants or indentured servants. Many translations of the Bible use the word “servant”, “bondservant”, or “manservant” instead of “slave” to make the Bible seem less immoral than it really is. While many slaves may have worked as household servants, that doesn’t mean that they were not slaves who were bought, sold, and treated worse than livestock.

    The following passage shows that slaves are clearly property to be bought and sold like livestock.

    However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

    The following passage describes how the Hebrew slaves are to be treated.

    If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.’ If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

    Notice how they can get a male Hebrew slave to become a permanent slave by keeping his wife and children hostage until he says he wants to become a permanent slave. What kind of family values are these?

    The following passage describes the sickening practice of sex slavery. How can anyone think it is moral to sell your own daughter as a sex slave?

    When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

    So these are the Bible family values! A man can buy as many sex slaves as he wants as long as he feeds them, clothes them, and screws them!

    What does the Bible say about beating slaves? It says you can beat both male and female slaves with a rod so hard that as long as they don’t die right away you are cleared of any wrong doing.

    When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

    You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament, as the following passages show.

    Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

    Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

    In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn’t know they were doing anything wrong.

    The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. “But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given.” (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

    Biblical Contradictions

    Here is a short and incomplete list of Biblical contradictions which were obtained from postings in internet newsgroups. Unfortunately I did not record who posted them or if they have a web site with a longer and more complete list. If you like this page you might also like Contradictions of the Gospel and this List of Biblical Contradictions at http://www.infidels.org

    If the Bible was divinely inspired, then why would it have so many really obvious contradictions?

    Theological doctrines:

    1. God is satisfied with his works
    Gen 1:31
    God is dissatisfied with his works.
    Gen 6:6
    2. God dwells in chosen temples
    2 Chron 7:12,16
    God dwells not in temples
    Acts 7:48
    3. God dwells in light
    Tim 6:16
    God dwells in darkness
    1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2
    4. God is seen and heard
    Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
    Ex 24:9-11
    God is invisible and cannot be heard
    John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
    5. God is tired and rests
    Ex 31:17
    God is never tired and never rests
    Is 40:28
    6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
    Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
    God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all
    things
    Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8
    7. God knows the hearts of men
    Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
    God tries men to find out what is in their heart
    Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
    8. God is all powerful
    Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
    God is not all powerful
    Judg 1:19
    9. God is unchangeable
    James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
    God is changeable
    Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
    Ex 33:1,3,17,14
    10. God is just and impartial
    Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25
    God is unjust and partial
    Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12
    11. God is the author of evil
    Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
    God is not the author of evil
    1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13
    12. God gives freely to those who ask
    James 1:5/ Luke 11:10
    God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving
    them
    John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17
    13. God is to be found by those who seek him
    Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17
    God is not to be found by those who seek him
    Prov 1:28
    14. God is warlike
    Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15
    God is peaceful
    Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33
    15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious
    Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19
    God is kind, merciful, and good
    James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/
    1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8
    16. God’s anger is fierce and endures long
    Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4
    God’s anger is slow and endures but for a minute
    Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5
    17. God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings,
    sacrifices ,and holy days
    Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9
    God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings,
    sacrifices, and holy days.
    Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12
    18. God accepts human sacrifices
    2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39
    God forbids human sacrifice
    Deut 12:30,31
    19. God tempts men
    Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
    God tempts no man
    James 1:13
    20. God cannot lie
    Heb 6:18
    God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits t deceive
    2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9
    21. Because of man’s wickedness God destroys him
    Gen 6:5,7
    Because of man’s wickedness God will not destroy him
    Gen 8:21
    22. God’s attributes are revealed in his works.
    Rom 1:20
    God’s attributes cannot be discovered
    Job 11:7/ Is 40:28
    23. There is but one God
    Deut 6:4
    There is a plurality of gods
    Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7

    Moral Precepts

    24. Robbery commanded
    Ex 3:21,22/ Ex 12:35,36
    Robbery forbidden
    Lev 19:13/ Ex 20:15
    25. Lying approved and sanctioned
    Josh 2:4-6/ James 2:25/ Ex 1:18-20/ 1 Kings 22:21,22
    Lying forbidden
    Ex 20:16/ Prov 12:22/ Rev 21:8
    26. Hatred to the Edomite sanctioned
    2 Kings 14:7,3
    Hatred to the Edomite forbidden
    Deut 23:7
    27. Killing commanded
    Ex 32:27
    Killing forbidden
    Ex 20:13
    28. The blood-shedder must die
    Gen 9:5,6
    The blood-shedder must not die
    Gen 4:15
    29. The making of images forbidden
    Ex 20:4
    The making of images commanded
    Ex 25:18,20
    30. Slavery and oppression ordained
    Gen 9:25/ Lev 25:45,46/ Joel 3:8
    Slavery and oppression forbidden
    Is 58:6/ Ex 22:21/ Ex 21:16/ Matt 23:10
    31. Improvidence enjoyed
    Matt 6:28,31,34/ Luke 6:30,35/ Luke 12:3
    Improvidence condemned
    1 Tim 5:8/ Prov 13:22
    32. Anger approved
    Eph 4:26
    Anger disapproved
    Eccl 7:9/ Prov 22:24/ James 1:20
    33. Good works to be seen of men
    Matt 5:16
    Good works not to be seen of men
    Matt 6:1
    34. Judging of others forbidden
    Matt 7:1,2
    Judging of others approved
    1 Cor 6:2-4/ 1 Cor 5:12
    35. Christ taught non-resistance
    Matt 5:39/ Matt 26:52
    Christ taught and practiced physical resistance
    Luke 22:36/ John 2:15
    36. Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed
    Luke 12:4
    Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed
    John 7:1
    37. Public prayer sanctioned
    1 Kings 8:22,54, 9:3
    Public prayer disapproved
    Matt 6:5,6
    38. Importunity in prayer commended
    Luke 18:5,7
    Importunity in prayer condemned
    Matt 6:7,8
    39. The wearing of long hair by men sanctioned
    Judg 13:5/ Num 6:5
    The wearing of long hair by men condemned
    1 Cor 11:14
    40. Circumcision instituted
    Gen 17:10
    Circumcision condemned
    Gal 5:2
    41. The Sabbath instituted
    Ex 20:8
    The Sabbath repudiated

  48. To Doucare: Maybe if you spent time looking for the TRUTH, The Love of God would be revealed to you. Most of your Point seems to be full of misunderstanding of the very Book that can help save your life. Truth will set you free………….not this mission of hatred you seem to be on. I really do hope that you can find it (TRUTH).

  49. I ask people for proof of God and they say “Our world is perfect for us! An intelligent being must have created it because it is so fitted for humankind.” … but if it wasn’t perfect for us we wouldn’t be here to argue about it anyway! If space really does go on forever, which I believe it does, than surely somewhere out there there is a planet sustaining life – which happens to be us. If you can’t already tell I am a strong atheist. There is next to nothing that supports the belief. Think about it, religion was born many years ago when human intelligence and understanding was low, religions, beliefs and superstitions was at it’s peak, and we needed a reason for everything. Because our mind wasn’t as developed as it is now, people pointed towards someone as the cause. Just like a tribe leader. They needed a leader, someone who would command over everything.
    I myself was born into a Christian family. My grandparents and relatives were all strong Christian – with the exception of my mother and father. I think if they weren’t so distant from “God” I would have been deluded forever. When I hit upper – primary and began to learn of evolution, science and history I saw my foolish ways and stopped being Christian, and I’ve never believed ever since.

  50. Rhianna, two things: where do we get accountability, and how did the whole concept of Law come to us?

  51. Rhianna,
    You lost me on the whole space goes on forever because I believe it does. Where’s your evidence for that one, and especially for your conclusion?

  52. Accountabiliy? Are you serious. Some of you people need to educate yourselves. Anyone that has studied basic psychology can answer that, Social Norms. Social Norms are a set of behavioural models and rules that are assimilated within a society. In other words, they are handed down over thousands of years as acceptable behavior within the group. Law and accountability are derived by Social Norms not some invisible entity that speaks from burning bushes and donkeys.

    “Theologians can persuade themselves of anything.”
    Robert A. Heinlein

  53. Its amazing how religion has brainwashed people into acting like they believe suck non-sense. Funny thing is, is when someone makes a logical argument they won’t touch it. But if someone says one curse word or even raises they’re voice they’re all over it

  54. WOW. That was some serious beef. I mean that as both gripe and substance.

    The truth about it is that if you are a believer, and you are touched by the Spirit then it’s less likely that these kinds of “inconsistencies” will bother you, and if you’re not, what do you care anyway? I mean, I guess if you feel oppressed by people of faith, and you may well be, then you could be on a mission to discredit us in general, but otherwise, what is that? A hobby?

    When people hit me with this kind of stuff, I always ask them where they got the idea that God was supposed to be consistent. Know any people who are always consistent? We are supposedly created in His image, and I should think that doesn’t just include the high points. Seems to me that the Lord is pretty arbitrary, sometimes random, occasionally cranky, and He’s been known to change His mind, notably when dealing with a particular stiff-necked and argumentive people He seems very fond of. But He also values justice, and values mercy over justice (hallelujah!), and values love over all.

    Ummm… and not to be snippy or hair-splitting, but,
    “…Think about it, religion was born many years ago when human intelligence and understanding was low, religions, beliefs and superstitions was at it’s peak, and we needed a reason for everything….”

    This is mixing your evolution with your anthropology and crashing it into your world history. This explanation of the ascendancy of religion discounts the historical and contemporary accounts of personal experience of the Spirit that millions of people have every day. People believe not just because they were told, not just as a factoid–like the earth was flat and we all learned better– but because of individual and personal experiences, regardless of culture or geography. Now, in statistics, that kind of a consistently recurring quantity of anecdotal first-hand accounts is generally regarded as “significant evidence” of … anything. Just sayin’…

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