No Apology Necessary!

Ok…so…we seem to have pissed some people off with a blog entitled “Why Christians Suck”. We have had numerous people send us emails and comments attacking us personally in regards to the statements made in this blog. They have questioned our commitment to Christ, our knowledge of scripture, our salvation, and have been called “limp wristed” (Did I get that right Chris?) and weak minded. We have even had people take offence at use of the word “Suck” in the title to the blog. We even had one “demand” an apology for what has been written here on this site. They have called us “kingdom players” and have lumped us in the same category as Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, Erwin McManus, and Dan Kimball just to name a few.
THERE WILL BE NO APOLOGY! We stand firmly on what we believe. We live our lives and direct our ministries according to the scriptures that are in the Holy Bible. We believe there is a “hot hell” and we are doing everything we can to keep people from going there by reaching out to them with the love of Jesus Christ. We live our lives according to the commands of Jesus. And what are the commands of Jesus? Jesus summed them up in two phrases…”Love God…Love People”
Call me revolutionary. Call me part of the “emerging church”. Call me foolish. Call me in love with people. Call me desiring to fulfill the calling God placed on my life. Call me what you will.
I am a “Christ-Follower”, a born again Christian, a child of the Living God. I depend strongly on His mercy and grace. I have put my sins under His blood. I am His…and He is mine!
So you don’t agree with us….that’s ok by me. If you don’t like what you read on this site…stop reading it! We will still love you with the love of Christ.

Peace.

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About Jimmy Eldridge

I am a husband, a father, a son, a brother and most of all, a follower of our most gracious savior Christ Jesus. Who are you following?

209 thoughts on “No Apology Necessary!

  1. You go bro! I appreciate you man, and I’ve checked out your site and your church’s site. I understood what you meant, and affirm your commitment to reach people for Jesus Christ.

  2. Timmy:

    Are you REALLY a pastor? Based on the first sentence, I would definitely call what you say / do as “emerging”, but I would be hesitant to call it “church.”

    Why is it necessary for you to be “cutting edge” or “relevant” at the expense of your vocabulary? Peter reminds us that we are a “chosen” (peculiar – KJV) people (1 Pe 2:9). Why do you feel like you have to talk like the world in order to reach them? Paul also admonishes us to avoid “foolish” or “coarse language” (Eph 5:4). I hear your words all day long from my atheist boss across the hall. Does that make him relevant? Why stop at words like shu**s? Throw a few he**s and da**s in there for good measure.

    Seriously. I’d really like to know.

  3. Ok…first…Timmy did not post this blog. There are a few different people involved in Relevant Christian.
    Second…We are not judging you…perhaps you might return the favor.

    Peace.

  4. //* We believe there is a “hot hell” and we are doing everything we can to keep people from going there by reaching out to them with the love of Jesus Christ…. *// … if u think u will save ppl by writing inflammoatory titles, then my frnd i feel sorry for you. There are so many bors and sis out there who need ur help. go out to them. help them.

    I do not know what the ppl like you gain by saying things that can offend others. dont even understand how far such a cheap publicity will take you. If u believe in something, that’s good. write abt it but in the process dont hate others.

    didnt Jesus say….Love God…Love people. ;)

    It’s disgusting to see ppl fighting on the name of religion in this day and age. Shame on you ppl.

  5. Was any of the questioning/points made ‘relevant’ to you? Did any of it deserve a study of the Word? Was there even one ounce of truth you might of pridefully overlooked for fear you might have to ‘apologize’? You never have to apologize, the question is why wouldn’t you desire from your heart to apologize if there was one ounce of truth in one comment? At least one I would have assumed you didn’t even publish. Maybe there was some truth in that one? You stand on your sand hill of your ‘relevancy’, and you will not be sound for long.

  6. I aplogize for assuming “Timmy” was the author of the post, although I fail to see what difference it makes if there are multiple contributors.

    Regardless of the actual author, I’m simply asking why using words that (hopefully) wouldn’t be used from a pulpit makes a more “relevant” statement/post. Is that “judging” to ask a sincere question?

  7. You say you are “born again”. What proof can you offer of that? Your language and overall tone don’t support your statement, so why should I believe you? And yes, you can call me judgmental if you like. There is plenty of Biblical support for examination of someone’s claims. It looks like Kieth already has examined you and found you wanting. So do I. I see no reason at all to use the vulgar language of the unrepentant world, it displays a distinct lack in your character. And a distinct lack of your understanding of exactly what a Christian should do or be.

  8. Matthew 15:18-20 (The Message)
    The Message (MSG)
    Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson

    16-20Jesus replied, “You, too? Are you being willfully stupid? Don’t you know that anything that is swallowed works its way through the intestines and is finally defecated? But what comes out of the mouth gets its start in the heart. It’s from the heart that we vomit up evil arguments, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, lies, and cussing. That’s what pollutes. Eating or not eating certain foods, washing or not washing your hands—that’s neither here nor there.”

    Matthew 15:18-20 (New American Standard Bible)
    New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation

    18″But (A)the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man.

    19″(B)For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.

    20″These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man.”

    Matthew 15:18-20 (Contemporary English Version)
    Contemporary English Version (CEV)
    Copyright © 1995 by American Bible Society

    18But the words that come out of your mouth come from your heart. And they are what make you unfit to worship God. 19Out of your heart come evil thoughts, murder, unfaithfulness in marriage, vulgar deeds, stealing, telling lies, and insulting others. 20These are what make you unclean. Eating without washing your hands will not make you unfit to worship God.

    Matthew 15:18-20 (Young’s Literal Translation)
    Young’s Literal Translation (YLT)
    Public Domain

    18but the things coming forth from the mouth from the heart do come forth, and these defile the man;

    19for out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, whoredoms, thefts, false witnessings, evil speakings:

    20these are the things defiling the man; but to eat with unwashen hands doth not defile the man.’

    Matthew 15:18-20 (King James Version)
    King James Version (KJV)
    Public Domain

    18But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

    19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

    20These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

    ================

    Isaiah 55:8-11 (King James Version)
    King James Version (KJV)
    Public Domain

    8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

    9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

    10For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

    11So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

  9. Timmy,

    So help me figure this out–There seem to be so many good things that you have to say. But I remember when my best friend and I both got serious about our relationship with Jesus and began reading our Bibles. We were in high school, and weren’t exactly the model youth group girls in our church. But I remember calling her (with sadness) to share what Ephesians said about our language and humor. That was one of many times to come where I was stabbed by the Sword of the Spirit. It cut right thru my preferences, and was the beginning of my love for God’s Word as My Lord spoke right to me.

    I’m not sure how your language fits your message. But I know I always want to know if I’m saying or doing something that doesn’t reflect Jesus, so I hope you do,too. You carry a huge responsibility, and I want you to know you are in my prayers. Keep growing in grace!

    Claire

  10. Congratulations guys. You’ve officially incurred the wrath of the watchdoggies. I’d give you a “Slice Shunned” banner for your site…but I ran out of those a while back.

  11. I use the word “Suck” from my pulpit all the time. Sometimes I even say I suck as a preacher. I suck when I cant clearly communicate how great God is and how lifechanging Jesus is. And it SUCKS when religious pharisees get mad at Christ followers instead of telling people about how great Jesus is.

    Check your scripture. Jesus use language that pissed people off.

    Good grief. Find someone to tickle your ears and put your head back in the sand.

  12. Someone who’s fired up. Can you tell me what it means when someons says, “That sucks” or a certain group sucks. And would you mind giving us your generation? 30-40, 40-50 or whatever?

  13. Dave.
    The slander of calling someone a “pharisee” is so grievous. How can you shove a judgmental stick deep into the eye to someone who has dissagreed with methods, and course speech? Do you feel so righteous that you now have authority to call someone a “pharisee”. You even tell your supposed brother to stick his head in the sand?
    You speak from a pulpit? You have not one ounce of apparent brokeness.
    Literally…head shaking sad.

  14. I read in your last post I believe under your comments (I could be wrong) in “Christians Su**” someone saying we were supposed to be followers of Christ and not Paul. I Corinthians 11:1 says “Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.” This means that Paul set the standard for what it really means to be a “Christ follower” as you say. Did Paul merely emulate Jesus? No! His object of faith was continually in the Cross allowing the Holy Spirit to bring about Christ-like qualities. The actions of Jesus in his 33 years on earth were directed towards the Jews so they would believe on Him. We are called to not emulate His actions but to fight the good fight of faith, love God with all our heart, preach the gospel, etc. I understand you mean well and perhaps that is why you are hurt by the discernment of Spiritually led people that may have discerned the fruits of your language, however it is out of love. I don’t know your heart, however by the way you speak, your understanding of love seems pretty wordly. Instead of using foul language, use your brethrens criticisms to see how your beliefs align with true interpretation of the Bible. We all as Christians have the right to discern, and be good Bereans. If you on a public forum offend others, you should expect to receive a rightful rebuke as a brother in Christ. We are called to mark those that cause division (incorrect interpretations etc), rebuke a brother if He offends us, and discontinue fellowship with that Brother if he refuses to repent of His actions. The world calls that judging, however the Lord calls that discernment. I will pray for whoever it is that feels the need to offend those that love and honor our Most Holy Holy Lord. And I hope that the more you grow in love and devotion to Him, you too can be filled with righteous indignation when speech like this hurts your fellow brethren.

  15. Joe…where was the term derived from is the question. It wasn’t from things going down the drain. You think and you are so young…cool…in…relevant, that is what Hitler thought he was…out with the old, feeble, lame, non relevant people…he also preached form a bible many times. The problem was, as is yours, he thought the bible could be changed to fit him and his meanings rather than be changed by it, conformed to it, and not conformed to the current worldliness of each generation.
    The ‘whatever’ at the end of your comment spoke loud about your attitudes towards anyone who disagrees with your generation and it’s methods.

    I think it is time for me, and everyone else to remember…the JUDGE is at the door! His wait is patience, not desiring anyone to perish, but all to repent…that means each one of us.

  16. Joe,

    In the context used in this blog:
    Suck = fellatio = stimulating of a penis by sucking (from the Latin fello – suck)

    The Lord bought me out of the world and the sin I lived in including the language used by the world. I was born in ’45 but even my grand children know the connotation of the word “suck” when used as it has been used in this blog.

    Read my previous message. The Gospel spells out very clearly that worldly language comes from the evil heart.

  17. LMAO, Larry did you just compare me to Hitler? You don’t know anythign about me. For one, my age, how old am I? Come on, you said, I think and I am so young. Second question, how many people have I killed? Have I ever served in the Armed Services? Hey, what did I read this morning in the Bible? Where did I go to church this week? What am I hoping to do this afternoon?
    Me and Hitler, yeah we’re really tight.
    BTW, Larry, I take it you’re older? Maybe you’re a fightin’ fundie too?

  18. Joey..you are in confusion due to your attitude. let me help you come of age a bit.
    Slander is one thing…open discussion of methods, language, attitudes is another. Yes he SLANDERED the commentor by calling him a “pharisee”. There is right judgement to say:
    Slander is wrong. He therefore is a “slanderer”. Also two wrongs don’t make a right, so it doesn’t matter if both would be wrong, one doesn’t justify another.
    Now back to the age discussion, since it was relevant to you…how old are you? It is starting to be apparent in your childishness and understanding, but with patience yours, mine and others…maturity will come and we will all better for it. Lets start today, the hour is getting late and we will all be giving an account.

  19. Paul,
    Thank you for your response. I disagree and I really believe it is a generational/culteral issue, but I thank you for responding rationally. To most people I know, I’d say 35 and under the term is the equivalent of something stinking or would be the same as saying that “Stinks.” For instance I might say, “Man, Hitler stank!” To many it would be the same as saying, he sucked.

  20. Hey Larry,
    My mom, used to call me joey so thanks for that fun run down memory lane. I miss her. Why are you asking me how old I am, you already said that know, didn’t you? You’re not saying that you’re not going to answer any of my questions are you?

  21. Wow I am severely offended. I guess you could call me a fightin fundie, bible thumpin, God Honoring 24 year old. I decided to come back and read the comments and saw your bitter reply to Larry. Doesn’t LMAO=laughing my a** off? Wow by their fruits we shall know them…oh and if you wanted to be a true Christ follower, wouldn’t you need to emulate every action he took? Like including dying on a Cross and atoning for sins? Don’t just pick and choose what you want to copy, do it all! I guess you could say I am angry at the course you chose to take with your fellow brethren. I don’t believe he was comparing you to Hitler, however shouldn’t you be wary when your actions follow those of the world? We are supposed to be seperate from this world because the God of this world is Satan

  22. Alex,
    Not comparing me to Hitler! He said, “you like Hitler…” Did you even read it or did you just get mad because I used an acronym you didn’t like? Here’s some bad news the word’s in the English language! It means a body part. Not a whole lot different than saying Laughing My ARM Off, which by the way would also fit.
    And when did I say I was a Christ follower? Do you call yourself a Christian? Doesn’t that mean when literally translated “little christ?” Are you planning on dying and atoning for sins? I guess you could say I’m disturbed that people like you find it ok to judge people and don’t even offer cognizant arguments for your actions.

  23. Joe, here is two lists of the Holy Word, after careful examination, I knew I needed to be conforming (by His grace to the top list). I also can see traits in myself and others that fit the bottom list. How do you in your heart find yourself in comparison to the lists? You don’t need to ansewer me. Period.
    This list helped me see with His Spirit, where I needed His correction.

    FAITHFUL STEWARDS OF GOD’S WORD ARE TO:

    1. Crave the Word – 1 Peter 2:2
    2. Believe the Word – John 2:22
    3. Love the Word – Psalm 119:97, 127-128
    4. Long for the Word – Psalm 119:20, 40, 131
    5. Delight in the Word – Psalm 1:2, 119:35, 143
    6. Rejoice in the Word – Jeremiah 15:16, Psalm 119:111,162
    7. Treasure the Word – Job 23:12, Psalm 19:10-11
    8. Esteem the Word – Psalm 138:2, 1 Thessalonians 2:13
    9. Reverence the Word – Psalm 119:161
    10. Honor the Word – 2 Thessalonians 3:1
    11. Trust in the Word – Psalm 119:42
    12. Sing the Word – Psalm 119:54,172, Colossians 3:16
    13. Meditate on the Word – Psalm 1:2; Joshua 1:8
    14. Memorize the Word – Psalm 119:11, 16, 61, 128-129, 176
    15. Abide in the Word – John 15:7, 1 John 2:23-25
    16. Obey the Word – Deuteronomy 17:19-20, Joshua 22:5, Psalm 119:67, Luke 8:21, John 14:15, 17:6, 1 John 2:3-5, 5:2-3
    17. Be Conformed by the Word – Psalm 119: 133, 1 Timothy 6:3, Titus 1:1
    18. Not to be ashamed of the Word – Romans 1:16, 2 Timothy 1:8
    19. Contend for the Word – Jude 3, Titus 1:9
    20. Defend the Word – Philippians 1:7
    21. Suffer for the Word – 2 Timothy 1:8
    22. Do not neglect the Word – 1 Corinthians 9:16
    23. Be empowered with the Word – 1 Thessalonians 1:5
    24. Hope in the Word – Romans 15:4
    25. Live the Word – Ezra 7:10, Philippians 1:27, James 1:22-25
    26. Take heed to the Word – 1 Timothy 4:16
    27. Rightly divide the Word – 2 Timothy 2:15, Nehemiah 8:8
    28. Retain the standard of the Word – 2 Timothy 2:13-14
    29. Read the Word – 1 Timothy 4:13; Colossians 4:16
    30. Share the Word – 1 Thessalonians 1:8, 2 Thessalonians 3:1
    31. Teach the Word – 2 Timothy 4:1-5
    32. Exhort with the Word – 1 Timothy 4:13
    33. Preach the Word – 2 Timothy 4:2
    34. Tremble at His Word – Isaiah 66:2

    Compare that with the ways of the wicked:
    They willingly: corrupt the Word, 2 Cor. 2:17;
    reject the Word, Jer. 8:9; disobey the Word,
    Psalm 119:158; wrest the Word, 2 Pt. 3:16;
    speak not its truth, Isaiah 8:20;
    hate its instruction, Psalm 50:16-17;
    cannot understand it, I Corinthians 2:14;
    they lay aside the Word, Mark 7:6-9; heed doctrines of demons, 1Timothy 4:1-2;
    promote destructive heresies, 2 Peter 2:1;
    are factious, Titus 3:9-10; and proclaim another gospel, Galatians 1:6-9.

  24. Larry,
    You still haven’t explained to me how you know me! Sorry man, I’m not letting you off the hook that easy. Either you believe you posted in anger and therefore sinned or you were right in what you posted about me and Hitler. I asked a simple question that one guy answered and one didn’t.
    P.S. You’re not the first “one guy.”

  25. No anger in my post. Pointed yes, no anger. It isn’t a sin to be angry anyway, just that we are not to ‘sin in our anger’. Now that that is clarified.

    I din’t compare YOU to Hitler, just what Hitler was doing as an extreme example of ‘relevancy’. BIG difference. My name isn’t Larry, it is Lawrence.
    But if you continue to call me that, it will be to ‘little’ me, as I gave you the exact example in return (Joey) to demonstrate what you were doing and for what reason. It takes a second longer to type Lawrence.
    Thanks

  26. Ok, Lawrence I can type that, old habit from a guy I know with the same name. No offense taken and truly if you want to call me joey, I don’t care. Some people do (not that many since my mom died but still some do) and some don’t.
    I’ll let my answer to Paul stand from the first question. I’m not sure I agree that your post was all that pointed. It was more attacking and assuming than you want to take credit for. Granted my response was as well, but I’ll take credit for that.

  27. In fact lawrence, let me quote you

    “You think and you are so young…cool…in…relevant….The problem was, as is yours, he thought the bible could be changed to fit him and his meanings rather than be changed by it, conformed to it, and not conformed to the current worldliness of each generation.
    The ‘whatever’ at the end of your comment spoke loud about your attitudes towards anyone who disagrees with your generation and it’s methods.”

    Now, here’s the problem Lawrence, the whatever was for what generation, not the “whatever!” that you took it for. You see, if you knew me, you’d know I HATE it when someone says whatever! I hate it, hate it, hate it! I didn’t want people to think I was trying to limit their age’s to those to generations.
    You’re killing me!

  28. If I get this one right… “Tremble at His Word – Isaiah 66:2″ then the rest will fall into place.

  29. To whoever “Joe” is: thanks for calling me “Jim from Old Truth”. I’m completely different. I do appreciate the comparison, though. I think that Jim from Old Truth’s example for a Christian is far better than your example, so I can live with the mistake.

  30. I am a Christian not because of anything I do on earth. I am a Christian because of what I believe. I believe in Jesus Christ and that his finished work on the Cross was sufficient for all of us to be cleansed of every sin, the symptoms of sin etc. I believe that as long as our faith is IN Christ, then and only then will the Holy Spirit have the latitude to bring forth fruits that will give only God the glory.
    And yes I did read the post-i don’t believe he was claiming you were like Hitler as far as his extermination of the Jews goes, however he was claiming that Hitler perverted Scripture to suit His agenda as did the person who is extolling another Jesus and haphazardly writing this blog. This Jesus of tolerance isn’t in my version of the Bible-maybe in The Message”Bible”? As for the “Christ follower” statement it is because I have read a few posts and that is why you have been labled seeker-sensitive, and emergent. I follow Christ in regards to the victory he accomplished not for some social gospel. His purpose wasn’t to come here and treat symptoms, it was to cure us of sin. That’s what he came here to do.
    I do not believe that either you or Larry are correct in the way that you chose to speak to one another, however I can understand his anger, whilst I am having a hard time understanding yours. If you offend someone, what does Christ call you to do? And that goes for Larry.

  31. Jim,
    I had to come back to this, what do you know about me? What is my example? I’ll ask you the same questions I asked lawrence.

  32. Alex,
    “As for the “Christ follower” statement it is because I have read a few posts and that is why you have been labled seeker-sensitive, and emergent.”

    You read a few posts where? Here in the comments? This all started with me asking a two sided question that Paul answered and Larry (or you for that matter) did not. I answerd Paul with a reasonable answer. You may disagree with me but you took a pretty long jump from there, didn’t you?

  33. Joe..seems you like discord..I’m growing weary from it. Have a good day, learn from the Word, conform to it’s truth, reject false, love God and your neighbor, be ready to give an account, and know that not everyone that calls him Lord, Lord will enter into His Kingdom…and His Kingdom doesn’t reflect the World in it’s ways, speach, attitudes, examples.

    His, by His grace…bought for His purpose, not mine.
    Lawrence

  34. Excuse me, I mean Lawrence. I apologize for the error brother. But I still believe that both you and Joe need to apologize to each other and whoever wrote these offensive posts on this emergent blog owes an apology to the entire body of Christ- who believes that the Lord is Holy and is way too Holy to be associated with such crass language displayed on this site. Our Lord is to be revered. If you think that its just fightin fundies offended, then think again because each one of us in the body of Christ indwelled with the Holy Spirit and obviously it is HE that has placed it on our hearts to be this angry. When I read the christians su** and this post I felt the indignation rise from my Spirit and felt led to guide the author of this foolishness back to the Cross. If that offends you, then I am sorry you chose to be an enemy of the Cross. But I am not apologizing.

  35. LOL, Lawrence, I’m not quite sure it’s discord because I disagree with you guys and ask a few questions for clarification. I have my fruit attacked, my example and my very Christianity and I ask a few questions with quotes and I’m sowing discord. To me, you’re a typical fundie, you sound good but when pressed all you do is run.

  36. In fact Lawrence,
    It seems to me that you are the one who came here to attack and sow discord with these guys, then when I asked a very general question you called me young and compared my use of Scripture to that of Hitlers. Who’s the one sowing discord?

  37. I’m still waiting for someone from relevantchristian.com to explain why it is more “relevant” to use words like “su**s” versus stinks or “pi**ed off” versus made angry, etc.

    Why does there seem to be so much pride in being “cutting edge” with words. Does that make the message more true? Why won’t someone answer my question?

    And how come you (RelevantChristian) THANKED Claire for her post?…and she assumed “Timmy” was the original post’s author.

  38. When I said I read a few posts, I didn’t mean comments. I read the columns, blogs, articles or whatever they are called. Excuse my ignorance. I came to my conclusions based on them. The comments just confirmed it. So to clarify-your comments don’t make you emergent, your blog posts, articles, columns or what ever they are called do. There is a big difference between judging based on evidence (fruits) and judging based on assumption. Which one are you guilty of? Your bitterness towards me is totally uncalled for. I was angry with the statements made, however after praying, the Holy Spirit is guiding my heart to lead you to the truth. And that truth lies in Jesus Christ and His finished work.

  39. See, that last statement is so full of self righteousness that it makes me ill. I don’t write posts here. You assume I need lead back to the cross, which is ironic because I believe the very same for you. I believe that you dishonor God with your self inflated piety, and you dishonor the body of Christ by assuming that people who might disagree with you need to be lead back to the cross.
    I am offended that you make assumptions about me based on 5 or 6 comments. The sadduceees did the same thing in Jesus’ day.
    You called me an enemy of the cross? That means I’m on my way to hell, please tell me how you know my eternal destination. This is the thing that kills me about fundamentalists. You assume if someone disagrees with you they have to be either unsaved/unregenerate/ or heretics. And you did say that if I disagreed with you I was an enemy of the cross, so I’d love for you to address how you know that.
    Thanks!

  40. Self righteousness? So you know my intent? My heart really goes out to you. Instead of apologizing you sow more hurt. Instead of backing up what was written on these blog posts with scripture, you back it up with your defensive attitude. I point back to the Cross because I need to know that you understand how Holy God is and I’m sorry but the way these articles were written it seems as if that is lacking. Not once did I say I was better than you or anyone else commenting on this offensive blog. Do you understand the Law of the Spirit? Do you understand that it is the Holy Spirit that sanctifies us and through our faith IN Jesus produce works such as being Christ like. Maybe it is I that am having a hard time understanding where you are coming from. Show me and clarify for me using the Bible, so I may understand you better. Your comments aren’t doing a good job of that. I am sorry if I came across as self righteous in my comment, that was not the intent of my heart.

  41. Here’s the plainest I can put my situation:

    I am sinner saved by God’s grace through the redemptive work of Jesus on the cross. I find you offensive because you assume I am not in right relationship with Jesus because I disagree with you on the issue of whether or not the word suck is appropriate for a Christian to use. In fact you called me an “enemy of the cross.” Besides being ludicrous, it’s ignorant and offensive. Once again, I DO NOT WRITE POSTS FOR THIS BLOG! I don’t know how to make it any clearer than that

  42. If you don’t write posts for this blog then why are you defending it? Why doesn’t the person who wrote them stand up for their own opinions and stand up to the folks who in their hearts believe they are standing up for God? Why are you even here venting your frustrations on fellow Christians when you aren’t even responsible for this foolishness? I sure wouldn’t take credit for it.

  43. Keith,

    I thanked Claire for her post because she said “I’m not sure how your language fits your message. But I know I always want to know if I’m saying or doing something that doesn’t reflect Jesus, so I hope you do,too. You carry a huge responsibility, and I want you to know you are in my prayers. Keep growing in grace!”

    I thought that was very “Christ-like” of her. Even though she doesn’t agree with my thoughts or writings, she has stated she will pray for me. I like that.

    As far as using the terms “sucks” and “pissed off”…that is how I speak. It is my “culture” if you will. There is no attempt on my part to be “cutting edge” as you put it…that just happens to be the way God designed me.

    And Keith…the reason it took so long for me to post back is that I am busy trying to figure out how to spread my, (tongue in cheek here) “false gospel” and get people to join my “cult”.(thanks to Christian Research and Aspiring Ministries for those two gems) And of course I am joking about the “false gospel” and “cult” thing!

    Peace!

  44. Joe is always right…Joe is always right…Joe is always right…now take me away by clicking my heels together over and over till it’s ooooovvveeerrr..

    Joe…you are harsh…ill….cross tempered…acusatory…and sometimes from the post…flat out wrong….please reveal your age so we can understand with more patience. I mean that. Please… so we can grade on some sort of scale..a curve for young and full of bravado.

    There are many proverbs discussing folly, I have hesitated in quoting them but you seem to demand a rebuke from them.

    I will finish with this, sorry for anything you have taken as an act of unlove from me, but it wasn’t intended as that. You are very difficult to deal with, and I assume it comes from pride ( I could be wrong) or hurts of others or you are just flat out ‘posing’ as a Christian when in fact you aren’t, which would explain allot. Go in peace, like I said before, Love God more, Love your Neighbor More…do right, hate what is false..have some respect for the Word on course language and slang terms by not using them.

  45. Alex,
    Oh My Soul! So it’s ok for you to call me an “enemy of the cross?” I defend this Blog because I think they’re ok to do it this way. I realize I disagree with you and that automatically puts my soul in harm’s way but all of the questions you asked of me can be asked of you. If these people are “false teachers” and a “cult” why not just pray for them and go away. Why come here and get all fired up? Why come here and pass judgements on people’s souls? I’m curious, how did you find this blog?

  46. Again…let me state to those who are complaining about the “foolishness” posted here.
    If you don’t like it…STOP READING IT!
    It wasn’t meant for you anyway. It was meant for the “emerging generation” or the “emerging church” as it has been so eloquently stated.

    I wonder if the guys at ChurchMarketingSucks.com get this much grief?

  47. Lawrence, lets go back and read my first question shall we? You are the one who came and attacked me! Get over yourself. What’s your age? I’m 33. You misinterpreted something I said and then proceeded to compare my use of Scripture to how Hitler handled Scripture. When I pressed you for some rationale behind your attack you ran away.I suspect you find me hard to deal with becaue I don’t just agree with you.
    You are the one who came with the harsh accusatory tone that is flat out wrong. I asked a simple question that was reasonable answered by Paul and completely attacked by you.
    The Bible talks very plainly about fools, but I too have hesitated to answer them. I feel very bad for you.
    Ok, now are you going to post your age or just attack again?

  48. Sorry that should read, I’ve hesitated to quote them to you. Lawrence, you and Jim and Alex have all questioned my salvation, and attacked my character. Give examples. Quote me!~
    Thanks~

  49. In my comment I was saying if you are offended by me pointing back to the Cross then that makes you an enemy of the Cross. I did not mean if you disagree with anything I say then you are an enemy of the Cross! I apologize for giving you that impression. Why are you lowering your standards to that of the world and not allowing the Holy Spirit to do His work? Why quench the Spirit? I am glad that YOU agree with this and that, but what matters is what GOD agrees with. And I have prayed and will continue to pray for you. I found out about your rotten fruit from Christian Research Network. Thank the Lord they show Christians what the emergent church is up to and warn us of anything that strays from His word not caring or pleasing any MAN…. Oh and BTW you were incorrect in comparing me to the sadduces because I definitely believe in the resurrection. Just clearing that up. Fightin Fundie signing off. God Bless You.

  50. Alex,
    I always appreciate prayers. Thanks for those. As for CRN. That webpage is a joke full of fallacies and lies.

  51. Ok…”Fightin Fundie”…that was funny!

    The “Rotten Fruit” thing was funny too!

    I wonder though if you really mean it when you say “I have prayed and will continue to pray for you”?

  52. Chris Elrod,
    Could you go to my journal and send me an email? I have some questions I’d like to ask you about your amazon store? Thanks!
    Joe~

  53. Joe, yes, I questioned your salvation. I would like to know what makes you different, set apart. That is, after all what a Christian is supposed to be.

  54. For “relevantchristian” You mean McManus isn’t the antichrist? By his works he would certainly appear to be an antichrist. And you, what makes you relevant? Your naughty mouth? You’re nothing but a child who hasn’t learned how to communicate using proper terms. You need to grow up a bit before you start pastoring. It might help too, somewhere along the way to figure out the real meaning of Christian, and what Christ did for us all.

  55. Jim, my question remains: “why do you question my salvation?” Please answer since you obviously know so much about me

  56. It was about 40 posts ago but yeah I called you a pharisee and your momma is probably one too. You ever sit in moses seat?

    Lets see – I think I just said the same things Jesus said – to the same kind of people.

    Whoever it was that blasted me – you got enough balls to come see me – i’ll pay for your freakin gas. And yes Im a pastor and preach every sunday – and you are welcome to listen to my sermons http://www.crosspt.cc – who knows maybe you’ll convert to following christ instead of your dead whitewashed religion.

    Why are we wasting our time doing this when people are dying and going to hell? Why don’t those of you who hate what I said and what relevant said and what Chris said go do what you do and do it well and we will applaud you. Let us do what we do well and applaud us. We’ll enjoy a huge party in heaven over the souls that are saved – but im here to tell ya this aint getting it done.

  57. Joe,

    1 Thessalonians 5:22 (King James Version)
    King James Version (KJV)
    Public Domain

    22Abstain from all appearance of evil.

    1 Thessalonians 5:22 (Young’s Literal Translation)
    Young’s Literal Translation (YLT)
    Public Domain

    22from all appearance of evil abstain ye;

    1 Corinthians 10:32 (King James Version)
    King James Version (KJV)
    Public Domain

    32Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

    Romans 14:21 (Young’s Literal Translation)
    Young’s Literal Translation (YLT)
    Public Domain

    21Right [it is] not to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor to [do anything] in which thy brother doth stumble, or is made to fall, or is weak.

    Romans 14:21 (King James Version)
    King James Version (KJV)
    Public Domain

    21It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

    =================
    Disagreement with my thoughts are one thing but God’s Word is what you are disagreeing with. The language discussed on this blog _does_ offend me and may cause some other brother to stumble. Saying it is a cultural/generational issue does not remove it from the worldly appearance of it.

    I pursue this issue with you with love in Christ because slang, foul and colloquial language drove a wedge between God and I. It took more than 30 years and prayers of my family before I came back to my Lord and Saviour. I feel so ashamed that I wasted half my life grieving the Holy Spirit. Some days I do sin by reverting to street/factory/worldly language and then I feel so sick and convicted.

    Being in the world, it is can be difficult to not talk like my unsaved friends but even they change their language around me. They know I’m held to a higher standard.

  58. Dave,
    I personally am with you, but I’m stuck at work right now monitoring phones so I’m having a little fun and exercise through conversation.

  59. Let me quote it in KJV so you will understand it Paul and the rest of the fish people:

    Great Peace have they which love thy law and NOTHING shall offend them. Psalm 119:165

  60. I am hurt by your comments. I went to your “detailed” breakdown of Christian Research and found nothing Scriptural there. Please show me in Gods Word where it is okay to defend emergent leaders over God? And please show me in Gods word where it is okay to question if a fellow Christian is really praying for you or not? I was really going to leave but you have hurt my feelings with your comments attacking people that truly love the Lord.
    In my heart I really felt that I was defending the Lord. So you can attack my character all you want, however God and I know my intent not you.
    I believe what Christian Research Net is trying to point out is that anything that deviates from the word of God to accomplish anything outside of the Holy Spirit is unscriptural, unGodly and utterly deceiving itself. You can disagree there is nothing wrong with that, but an entire site devoted to bashing Ken Silva? Come on-that entire site contradicts what Dave Anderson just commented.

  61. I confess I don’t understand the “fish people” statement. Although I have been told I’m dumb so….could you explain it to me thanks!

  62. Alex,
    **Said in as slow a voice as a Northerner can muster***
    Go back and read who questioned you praying for me. I did not question it, someone else did. Please stop giving me credit for what other people say.

  63. Um the entire site is not dedicated to contradicting Ken, but lately his posts have been so egregious that they had to be addressed. We’ve also addressed other contibutors. Even broke them down with Scripture. Please go back and read it again.

  64. If it isn’t referring to you then don’t answer Joe. What you said was quite rude. I’m not stupid so you don’t need to slow anything down for me. So this is how brethren speak to each other? Now I am asking if someone would get out their Bible as mine is sitting on my lap and we can go through this together. Prayerfully and Scripturally. Thank You

  65. “And please show me in Gods word where it is okay to question if a fellow Christian is really praying for you or not?

    Amy,
    I thought it was addressed to me since I was the one you were having a conversation with when you said you were praying for me. I certainly never meant that you were stupid. I talk fast and type faster, sometimes that gets my words backwards. Relax. We may disagree, but I don’t think you’re stupid. Maybe you could address your comments from now on. :)

  66. Now Mr. Anderson would you please back up your course speech with Scripture? I am a lady and I feel that it is inappropriate to use language like that in front of God, women, and children. We can sit here and compare scriptures together and help each other understand why we believe we can do these things while the Holy Spirit lives within us.

  67. Look up the word “Suck” on dictionary.com. One of its uses is slang but its not vulgar or worldly or any other religious/baptist/pharisee term you want to apply to it.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/suck

    11. Slang. to be repellent or disgusting: Poverty sucks.

    This is the context the people in this blog use it in – and its the context I use it in – and if you think that sucks im sorry – but thats the way it is. It if make you feel better we could says “sucketh” :-)

    Seriously guys/gals – some people’s feelings got hurt and thats a real shame. We shouldn’t stir up strife over words or question each other’s salvation or holiness. Lets agree on one thing – Jesus Christ is the Son of God and died so that everyone could have forgiveness and eternal life. Our mission is to take that message to a broken world and communicate it in a language they can understand.

    Fish people – people who drive around with a fish on their car pretending to be Christian and then leave a crappy tip at a restaurant after church on Sunday.

  68. Alxxndria,

    Then I truly thank you for praying for “us”. I applaud you for your sincerity.

    I believe this discourse has run it’s course.

    While we may not agree with the majority of you who have posted here today… We have not questioned your salvation.
    We have not questioned your devotion to Christ or his teachings.

    Some of you have accused us of distorting scripture. Some of you have accused us of being rotten fruit. Some of you have accused us of being foolish.

    I am amazed sometimes at the unwillingness of people who call themselves “christians” to show Christ’s Love!

    We serve an amazing, compassionate, forgiving, merciful, Holy God.

  69. Oh Man, as as server I hate waiting on fish people. They run you like a dog and leave a fake $20 as a tip. I already said, that is what suck meant so I’m with you there too.

  70. Lawerence and whoever else,
    Please read Matthew chapter 7- its speaks about not pointing out a speck in your brothers eye when there is a plank in your own eye

    I Timothy 4:12 on’t let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity.
    I believe these verses apply to you. Joe was simply stating a point and asking for clarification. The more clarification he asked for the more you all attacked. Someone even had the nerve to accuse him of being like Hitler and changing the bible to fit his life. It is funny, because after reading your comments I would accuse you of the very same thing. It is sad that you would discredit someone because of their age. It is even sader that you would so harshly judge someone from a few comments, just because they did not agree with your stance.
    Language is a cultural thing. Back in the day if I would say “Lawerence you are such a Stud! That would have meant that I thought you had a big penis. Today if I say that it means “Wow Lawerence you think you are great looking don’t you.” Culture changes! When someone uses the word suck in today’s culture it does not mean you want to suck their penis. It simply means it stinks, its unfair. If you use the phrase that stinks it is no different than saying that sucks! Everything is culture my friends. Why is it wrong to say you went pee instead of saying you pissed? The word Ass is in scripture here is an example for you “And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.” Our you all over God for allowing a word in the bible that once meant a Donkey but now means a hinny. The words you choose to use is a matter of prefrence. Unless in todays culture it is truly meant as a Vulgar comment which suck is not than don’t sit back and judge someones heart by one statement. It is WRONG! Don’t sit back and judge others because they do not talk like you. The Kings James version of the bible is written in old english we do not talk that way any more in fact some would find it offensive if you talked to them that way. Lets not make our culture prefrences heart conditions. Shame on you for judging someones soul because they disagree with you!

  71. Dave Anderson,

    Matthew 16:23 (King James Version)
    King James Version (KJV)
    Public Domain

    23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

    Matthew 16:23 (Young’s Literal Translation)
    Young’s Literal Translation (YLT)
    Public Domain

    23and he having turned, said to Peter, `Get thee behind me, adversary! thou art a stumbling-block to me, for thou dost not mind the things of God, but the things of men.’

    ============
    You referred to Ps 119 and the Law. Fortunately we are now under Grace. If Christ is our example, and He shows offense, certainly we should also be offended by something offered by a Christian that goes against God’s Word.

  72. I didn’t say you were rotten fruit, just what you present on this blog. It just seems so man centered and not at all Christ centered. And su** is inappropriate, ba**s is inappropriate, and fre**** is inappropriate to several people and to me is offensive
    Matthew 18:11-Moreover if your brother shall trespass against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone: if he shall hear you, you have gained your brother
    16 But if he will not hear you, then take with you one or two more, that in the mouth of 2 or 3 more witnesses every word may be established
    17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the Church, let him be unto you as an heathen man and a publican.

    So couldn’t you just have apologized for the offense? I mean apology IS Scriptural

  73. Alex,
    Here’s another problem I have with you. You came here. You went seeking this offense. Then you want an apology. You had to have some idea what you were going to find here when you clicked the link. If it was so offensive, why not just stay away?

  74. I’m afraid this blog has become the “fresh meat” for the amen choruses of watchdoggies. While there is certainly a smirk on my face as I throw a nod in your direction, I’m going to have to point out that you guys picked this particular fight. These people will entertain no other opinion or take on scripture other than their own…so I humbly submit that you not try so hard. It’ll just end up frustrating you…which is probably what they’re out to do anyway.

  75. “Judge Not!” is the battle cry of those who use it as a smoke screen to secretly and safely retreat from orthodoxy. “Judge What I Say!” is the battle cry of those who sharpen their swords as they advance forward in defense of the truth. – Sandy Simpson

    “Truth is seen as “unloving” only by those who are convicted by it…and yet refuse to listen and repent.” – Sandy Simpson

  76. Dave Anderson,

    Rom 3:20, Rom 6:14, Rom 7:4, Gal 3:10, Gal 5:13-14, 1 John 5:3, 1 Cor 7:19

    and Romans12:1-2

    I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

    And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

  77. Lawerence,
    Whos Sandy Simpson and why are you quoting her?

    Dave,
    You quoted one of my favorite passages Romans 12:12. I am curios what point you are trying to get across by using that passage?

  78. the quote is the reason…someone else said something, so I quoted it, rather than saying it myself. Sandy is a man, and has written several books and articles on the current culture of “new is better”, meaning “we are better” which seems to be the attitude of the name calling bunch here. Seems okay to call everyone a saduccee or pharisee, but don’t question vugar language, etc.
    again…the attitude of “we are better, cause we are doing it newer, hipper, more relevant than you” is nothing but unhumbled, non-broken works of men from pride.” Hmmm…Pride…the origional reason Satan and his ‘followers’ were cast from God’s Holy presence. Just something to think on.

  79. Oh and another one….from another ‘old Christian’,

    “The true ground of most men’s prejudice against the Christian doctrine is because they have no mind to obey it.” – John Tillotson

    There is that doctrine word that will get you a name called or two, next they will be stoning us for just saying doctrine, truth, absolute, soon they will collect the old manuscripts, since “we don’t talk that way anymore”, that old greek is gone, besides we have a ‘new’ bible, one we like…it’s full of emoticons that we like, nothing is stinging in it’s clarity…it’s an endless conversation, just like the little conversation in the garden…

  80. That was Paul – quoting it to me (dave) – Its also my favorite. How using the word suck conforms to the world is beyond me. Just so you know Paul and others that want to quote every bible verse to me out of context – I am a reformed KJV only, Peter Ruckman loving, independent fundamental aint no other book good enough Baptist Christian and God called me out of that trash and taught me grace by asking me to quit my job and move my family to Austin Texas to try and plant a church.

    That failed and I repented from my sin of being a self righteous pharisee who thought he had God figured out and church figured out. While I knew the truth I couldn’t find grace with a flashlight and a magnifying glass and I certainly never gave anyone grace.

    Then God called me to quit my job again, move my family back to Alabama and plant a church in my home town which I pastor for free while working 40 hours a week to put food on my table and a roof over my head.

    We started with 6 people in a living room and have grown to 125 in a few years.

    The people who come to my church don’t go to church mostly because of “fish people” and self righteous pharisees who are so heavenly minded they are no earthly good. But at Crosspoint they are finding grace AND truth which is what Jesus WAS and they are finding forgiveness for their sin and following Christ and learning to love Him and make disciples.

    Spit on me, call me names, quote bible to me, even tell me I stink (because suck would offend you). I don’t care. I have devoted my life the last few years to rescuing people from the flames of hell and I run a rescue mission at the very gates of hell – not a country club for the already converted.

    What do you do besides bash missionaries? What sacrifice have you made besides you don’t say suck? Dang – there I go being like bible characters again.

  81. Lawrence, you need to look into some rhetoric classes. You’re use of straw man tactics and name calling is astounding. Would it surprise you to know that one the dearest people I know is a 60+ year old man who reads only the KJV and believes that a certain college in South Carolina is the only one you should go to. He and I disagree on many things but we both believe that in God’s redemptive power in each other and we both get along quite well. In fact, he’s never questioned my salvation, compared my use of Scripture to that of Hitlers or anything else I’ve run into with you and Alex.
    The truth is, your “I’m the Old Wise Guy” just doesn’t play here. You never answered Erica’s questions. Why not? She brought out some Scriptures that you seem to want to misuse or ignore.

  82. Dave places his works before men…then ask those to compare his sacrifice to thiers, and his works. You take credit for doing what any servant should do, then demand with a curled lip for the other servants to parade thier reasonable service to match yours…then you…get the point. You are doing it better, newer…but you aren’t…because if anything is getting done for Him…He is doing it. You just get to…unless it is some sort of contest, that you have been competeing in and the ‘numbers’ are based on your understanding of success. Just remember…Jesus ran people off with direct, absolute demands, not sugar cookies and milk so they will be able to stomach the harder points. Many of the ‘followers’ left, just after the hard teachings…not came because it was easy.

  83. “We serve an amazing, compassionate, forgiving, merciful, Holy God.”

    Yes we do, and He has just tried to awaken you. And I respectfully suggest that you heed the Lord’s warning.

  84. Lawerence my brother in Christ,

    I applaud Dave!! You are condeming him for sharing his life story. He wants to know some of yours. The bible talks about the work God started in us, He talks about running the race. Paul tells us his story and how he reached people. I am sure you do not practice some of the cultural things mentioned in Paul’s letters do you? Why did you take such great offense to Dave sharing what God is doing in his life? God has given us each a story just like the Apostle Paul! He wants us to share it! You could have encouraged Dave and cheered him on instead you bashed him.
    You never responded to my long post about your attitude toward Joe? I believe you are the one name calling names and belittling people all because they don’t agree. Do you not agree with me on my view point on culture? The culture changed from the New Testament to the Old Testament. What Christ did on the cross never changes. The emergents never claim it does.

    Dave,

  85. sorry about that.
    Dave,
    I appreciate you sharing your story. You blessed me today not even knowing it! My husband and I have been in the same situation as you. God has called us to a couple of different church planting situations some have not made it because of our own personal sin while others have. It is neat that you are so open to the Lords leading in your life. Stay with the race Dave, God is faithful!

  86. Mr. Silvia
    Who are you speaking to?
    I agree with you we do serve an amazing, compassionate, forgiving, merciful, Holy God!

  87. “Yes we do, and He has just tried to awaken you. And I respectfully suggest that you heed the Lord’s warning.”
    Is he prophet? ;-) God speaks to him?

  88. Hey Dave, looks like you not only like using the word suck. The letter I is used alot in your vocabulary. My KJV tells me not to let my right know what my left hand is doing. Tell me, what is the difference in a Baptist Christian & someone that is part of the body of Christ? By the way, you hav’nt reminded me of any Bible characters with what you’ve had to say.

  89. Anthony,

    I am so confused Anthony, why can he not use the word I? Typically that is the pronoun you use if you are refering to something you have done or if you are sharing your story. I know what you are going to say so let me get it out of the way for you. You are going to say it is not all about him it is what God has done right? He refered to God several times in his post. He talked about how God called him to Texas, he talked about his own personal sin. How would have liked him to share that post? Enlighten me please. “By the way, you havn’t reminded me of any Bible characters with what you had to say.” Anthony, what was the point of that statement?
    I am Baptist and what he said did not offend me at all! I actually would rather not be Baptist for a host of reasons.

  90. Erica, The point of the Bible character statement I made to Dave was aimed toward what he placed at the end of his last statement. I was used in a boastfull & pridefull way rather than saying God has done His works through me. Lawrence pretty much summed that up already.I choose to say that I am part of the body of Christ rather than say that I am a Baptist Christian though I do have a membership in a Baptist church. Please excuse the I’s, no pride intended here. You say that you would rather not be a Baptist. Anyone can go to a Baptist church & say that they are a Baptist. That does’nt make them part of the body of Christ. Tell me some of your reasons for not wanting to be a Baptist & why you don’t step away from that doctrine if you are hearing that call. REJECT RELIGION, EMBRACE JESUS!

  91. Why do I not want to be Baptist any more? Wow, where do I start; I grew up in a very conservative, fundamentlist church. My parents are still Baptist and I respect that. I will say this, I believe in the Baptist distinctives. I believe in most points of Calvanism. Some of them do not make sense to me and I am not willing to act like it is clear as mud in scripture because it is not. I don’t want to be associated with men like Ken Silvia or the Baptist church that is out protesting at funerals because they are anti-homesexuality. I believe homosexuality is sin but what they are doing is sin! I do not believe that hymns and chorus are the only way to go. I do not believe that the KJV is the most accurate translation. I do not believe that mixed bathing, drinking, and using cultural words is wrong. Most Baptist I know fail to be real. They hide behind church answers and cliches. If someone asks you how you are doing you should say fine if you answered any other way you were not spiritual.
    Here is what I know. The day Jesus Christ brought me to Himself in salvation my life has never been the same. My whole life has been a story of God working in my life to make me more like His son. I want the world to know that I love Jesus! I want them to know that I struggle just like them, I fall short, but I have something that has gotten me through everthing bad thing in my life and that is Jesus and He can do the same for them. The worst testamony you can have to a non believer is pretending that you are better than them. At best we can all say we are different and that is because we have Christ in our life.
    I would love to say that I believe that Christ only died for the elect but I can argue both sides so at best I can say I do not know. I believe it is ok to drink an alcholic bevarge now and again. In fact if you have a friend and they do not know Christ and they hang out a club I was always taught you were conforming to the world if you went. Now I think you should go it is a great oppurtunity to build a relationship with that person.
    There is only one thing I will die for and that is what Jesus Christ did on the cross for me. My job on earth is not to conform other christians to believe the way I do. My job is to share the love of Jesus with a lost and dying world.
    I will soon be non denominational. I am excited about this change. I will always hold to a lot of what I was taught growing up but I do not want to be associate with Baptist people. The way that act is an embarassment to me and Christ. I do not believe that I am rejecting Christ if I am not Baptist. In fact I would love to see where the denominations are in scripture.

  92. I happened across this blog today and read this post and related comments along with a few of the others. Some of the comments made me sad. I just wanted to say one thing. While dialogue among believers is healthy for the Church, there is a need to be cautious that our “discussions” do not become a point of division. I myself have been guilty of this very thing, so I do not thrown this scripture at anyone or any group of people, but instead offer it as an encouragement and point of reflection.

    “22Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.” 2 Timothy 2:22-26

    Gentle instruction is a tough task. Let us each examine our words and attitudes to be sure that our personal sentiments, when expressed, do not become a stepping stone for Satan’s attempt at division among believers. Do we not see that sometimes the devil uses believers against one another to stir up trouble in His Church? Let us be aware of his schemes and not fall prey to them!

    “11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.” Ephesians 6:11-12

    Our battle is not against each other, not against flesh and blood, but against God’s enemy, our enemy. Let us fight him as one body, with Christ, and beware of infiltration with the purpose of division.

    “Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.” Hebrews 12:14-15

    Let us encourage one another rather than point fingers. Perhaps our time would be better spent loving those who do not know Him rather than arguing our own point of view with those who do. I pray for wisdom in these matters for myself and each person here. May God grant each of us grace in our dealings with one another.

    Grace and peace to each of you.

  93. Observations:

    1. The folks operating this blog don’t seem to throw in to the discussions very often. Instead, they let their supporters/followers do all their hyperventilating for them. May I suggest that Christ answered questions put to Him, instead of letting His Apostles do all the answering (or evading, as I see so frequently here)? Is it fair to say that people doing the direct asking are not being “Christlike” when the blog authors themselves are not doing as He did? Or is there a word for that (which I hesitate to use because I’m sure someone will be quick to use it right back on me)?

    2. The folks operating this blog also don’t put their own names to their posts–so it is exceedingly difficult to attribute a position to any one of them. That makes any “discussion” virtually impossible, because one never gets a clear idea of what any blog writer believes.

    3. Based on a comment above, “Pastor Timmy” did not write this blog post, although apparently he wrote the “Why Christians [expletive].” Comments to that previous post inquired whether he knows the difference between being “born and raised a Christian” (common misnomer referring to one’s upbringing in a Christian household) and being a Christian in one’s own right. “Pastor Timmy” (I put this in quotations because I do not yet see that I should accept his anointing as a pastor) has not yet answered that question.

    4. Is it absolutely necessary that you cling fervently to language which forms a stumbling-block…or out of charity, can you see your way clear to saying, “We’re sorry if our language was too strong; we don’t see it that way, but it wasn’t our intention to give needless offense to the sensitive”? I’ve had people get offended when I say “darn,” and I’ve apologized for giving offense, even when it seemed silly. Myself, I find it easier to let some things go than to start calling names and defending a position which is only going to drive a wedge. Do I recall a passage about not eating meat which “causeth thy brother to stumble”?

    5. Joe, I don’t know why you are so surprised that people are upset with you. Every single one of your comments thus far has either been sarcastic or outright insulting. (Starting with “Let me guess, Chris P called you “limpwristed”? What a great guy. Keep on keeping on, man.” This was your first comment.)

    6. Dave Anderson, do you honestly believe that God called you to fail the first time? That point aside, sir, you make an attempt to divert everyone from the issue when you ask “And what are YOU doing to alleviate poverty/cure AIDS/save souls/stop global warming/etc.?” This is not only a cheap distraction, but a form of self-righteousness (“You have no business questioning ME when I do so many more good works than you do”). It is not for anyone here to prove that they are as “holy-as-thou”; the discussion is whether a particular course of conduct or manner of speech is Christian–in short, where the line between being “in the world” and “of the world” lies and when it is crossed. Mind staying on-topic?

    7. I understand that people are very passionate about Christ here. However, where is the love? I’ve seen a lot of “How dare you question me, you hypocritical follower of a dead whitewashed religion?” and a great deal of name-calling (mostly “Pharisee” and “Sadducee” and “fightin’ fundie”), but very little in the way of forbearance. Oddly enough, most of these offenses seem to be on the part of the defense, not the questioners. If you would really like to prove that you are “more Christian” than those “attacking” you, then may I suggest you exercise self-discipline, answer the questions put, and refrain from returning what favors may be bestowed? You would impress me much more–even if I am a “fightin’ fundie” myself. After all, “give as good as you get” does NOT appear in the Bible–but “turn the other cheek” and “love thy neighbor as thyself” DO, don’t they?

    That said, if anyone wants to ask how they might know I’m born again, you may feel free. It’s a legitimate question, and I’m not ashamed to give a testimony of how Christ has worked in me and still is! If I find my way back here, I’ll even give you an answer.

  94. Mrs. W. Pilgrim,

    I believe I answered most all of the questions that I needed to answer.

    I thought I had made my point very clear in the original post and really only felt the need to comment a few times. Is that wrong?

    People are welcome to rant here as much as they want for the most part.

    And by the way…my name is Jimmy!

    Nice to meet you.

    Peace!

  95. Actually Mrs Pilgrim, when the Pharisees and the Romans questioned Christ he did not answer. That was to fulfill Scripture. I will however answer your statement to me. I’m not surprised they’re upset. I’m actually frustrated with them and you but I am surprised that they and perhaps you feel the need to question my salvation based on what is written here and when I ask them to explain themselves they either run away or hide behind miss quoted Scripture. So here you go:

    Jesus did not answer questions from the Religious Leaders of the day, The Romans or Herod. Go back and read Isaiah, he lays it all out for you. If you want to know my story, email me I’ll tell you all about what God has done for me. If I do it here, Anthony might acuse me of something. :)
    Peace!

    Mr. J Martino

  96. Erica, Why is it ok to drink alcohol now & then? Either it’s sin or it’s not. If it’s not sin drink all you want. You’re either hot or cold. Jesus will spit the lukewarm from His mouth. Rev.3:15 Tell me how drinking alcohol brings any glory to God & I will head straight to the nearest wet town & buy some! If God had led someone out of alcoholism would you choose to be a stumbling block for them by drinking before them just because you think it’s alright? Is not your body a temple? For those of us that choose not to drink or use cultural words have nothing to lose if we are wrong. on the other hand, those that do not see anything wrong with it are risking it all if they are wrong. Test the spirits .

  97. ***Try it a third time***

    Actually Mrs Pilgrim, when the Pharisees and the Romans questioned Christ he did not answer. That was to fulfill Scripture. I will however answer your statement to me. I’m not surprised they’re upset. I’m actually frustrated with them and you but I am surprised that they and perhaps you feel the need to question my salvation based on what is written here and when I ask them to explain themselves they either run away or hide behind miss quoted Scripture. So here you go:

    Jesus did not answer questions from the Religious Leaders of the day, The Romans or Herod. Go back and read Isaiah, he lays it all out for you. If you want to know my story, email me I’ll tell you all about what God has done for me. If I do it here, Anthony might acuse me of something.
    Peace!

    Mr. J Martino

  98. Anthony, I have a question for you.

    When Jesus turned water into wine was that really wine? Same question for when Paul told Timothy to drink a little wine for his stomach? Did he really mean wine?

  99. Anthony,
    I have to disagree with you that drinking is wrong. Why did Jesus service the best alcohol at the wedding in Cana. Look at Gen chpter 25-29, Ecc 9:7, Is 56:12, John 2. I believe with all my heart that you could prove from scripture that it is wrong to get drunk. I would never ever drink in front of anyone that was an alcholic or had a problem with drinking. I am more than willing to give up my christian liberty for by brother or sister in Christ.
    It is not black or white, it is not a matter do I think it is sin or not sin. It is sin to get drunk but it is not sin to drink a glass of wine. That is all I am saying.

    So you do not believe that words our culturally set at all? Your vocabulary is that of the New Testament since we should not change with culture? Is this what you are saying?

  100. Wow…

    If this forum is a reflection of the ‘unity’ within the church, we’re all in trouble. It is one thing to disagree with the words of a brother, but it is completely different to question their salvation (which, I believe is God’s job), based upon such scant evidence as the word ‘suck’. I personally, tend to avoid this word – not because I consider it crude speech (because I don’t see it used in a fashion that suggests anything sexual), but because there are weaker Christians who may be offended by my use of it.

    I used to be of the opinion that ANY use of alchohol was sinful, but I have greatly softened my stance – seeing it in similar fashion as eating meat sacrificed to idols, something that I am free to do in Christ, but something which, if I am careless in the exercise of my freedom in Christ, might cause another to stumble.

    Anthony – you’re using Rev 3 out of context, as it has to do with being ineffective, not with “it’s a sin or it’s not” – drinking is not a sin defined in the Bible, but being drunk is. Here’s a bit of contextual interpretation of Rev 3: http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/?p=25

    “Pastor” Ken said

    Yes we do, and He has just tried to awaken you. And I respectfully suggest that you heed the Lord’s warning.

    Sorry, Ken, but no matter how many times we remind you, you still seem to forget that it is only YOUR word not being heeded, not GOD’s – you keep mistaking one for the other (in violation of the Third Commandment).

    Alex:
    I maintain the http://christianresearchnetwork.info/ site, and yes, it has focused a bit on Ken lately, due to some aggregiousness on his own part, but that is not its purpose. Its purpose it to give a place where topics raised by CRN/Slice 2.0 can be discussed without censoring the comments to create a false witness through the logical fallacy of assertion.

    What I find interesting is that much of this thread is bashing a fellow Christian over a tertiary issue (the word ‘suck’) of little consequence. Additionally, one of the posters from CRN (Chris P) uses this term in a number of his posts (which I have not been offended by, as it was not being used in a crude manner), yet the same ‘amen chorus’ chooses to ignore it.

    There is room for emerging Christians and fundamentalist Christians in the kingdom. We are all part of the same temple (there is only one), and we are living stones within its walls. Rather than tearing down the walls that don’t fit our liking (or snootily asserting through myopic isogesis that the other stones don’t fit to our tastes – subtly, or not-so-subtly, asserting that our tastes are God’s tastes), how about we go about doing the work we were put here to do?

    Grace and peace,

    Chris

  101. (Assuming you’re not being cute with me :)

    mypoic (near-sighted, blind)

    isogesis (sometimes called ‘prooftexting’, which is taking scriptures out of context to make them say something they don’t say when viewed in context)

  102. Thank you. Your responses indicate the prevailing attitude.

    Since you are so quick to become offended at me for making the observations above–instead of actually taking them into consideration with humility and grace–then I believe I can do nothing to be of any assistance. It makes me puzzled, given that my last comment was my first on this particular post–and my second to this blog, period–that I suddenly become part of the group generating frustration. My, how fragile you must be.

    This “discussion”–if a one-sided snipe session with plenty of hot hot insults and hypocritical self-righteousness in answer to legitimate questions may be called a “discussion”–is fruitless. As such, I will wipe the dust off my feet and expend my efforts where they might actually reach some people who are INTERESTED in hearing a dissenting opinion.

  103. Joe Martino said: “Jesus did not answer questions from the Religious Leaders of the day…” What Bible do you read Joe? “Then the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question… Jesus replied, ‘Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God?’… One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, ‘Of all the commandments, which is the most important?’

    ” ‘The most important one,’ answered Jesus, ‘is this: “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.” (Mark 12:18, 24, 28-30) If you’re going to attempt to be a spokesman for Jesus, it’d probably be a good idea to have your facts straight, dontcha think?

    Mrs. Pilgrim, welcome to the Emergent “conversation” of the tolerant “Christ-followers,” where they will be more than happy to talk with you as long as you already agree with their psuedo-Christianity. What you’ve said was well stated. :-)

    But trust me, they will not listen. They are too busy preparing their next argument.

  104. Ha! Ken, I knew as soon as I posted that it could get jumped on but wait a minute you and I have had many conversations so I’ll go back to Mrs. P for minute.

    Mrs. P. I’m not offended at all. It seems that while we both speak English, we don’t speak the same language. But thank you for proving my point. I answered your question, and you come back with some self-righteous sounding hogwash.  Good Luck with that. What I said was, I don’t care if Ken, You or anyone else for that matter is upset with me or offended by me. I want to know why you or they don’t think I’m saved. Can you answer that?

    Now Ken (By the way, are you related to Daniel Silva? I love his stuff): Did you read my post? Have you read Isaiah? How about Mark?

    Mark 14:61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.

    How about Matthew 17:24

    "And while He was being accused by the chief priests and elders, He did not answer.

    13Then Pilate said to Him, "Do You not hear how many things they testify against You?"

    14And (B)He did not answer him with regard to even a single charge, so the governor was quite amazed. " Let’s even look at the passage you quoted. Did he answer them or did he ask another question?   Uh-oh Ken he asked a question.

    Now, I could give you a lot more chapters and verses where he doesn’t answer he simply asks more questions. Will you address these? Probably not. Like the white-washed house of death that you are will simply snipe and run away when confronted with Scripture. Just like you did when I took your McManus post and blew it up. Ken, you outright lied on that post. In a display of editing that would have made the NY Times proud you edited and cut that poor man’s statements to fit your headline. You were dishonest in the name of Jesus. When confronted what did you do? NOTHING! You have shown your snake like skin in the past and wolfish ways in post after post. Your hypocrisy is evident in how you handled the very post that got us here. One day you have the word suck in your title the next you have symbols.  I am sure there will be many people who will come here without much context and say I’m being unreasonably hard on you here. So be it. What about Chris P? He’s one of your "contributors" and he uses the word suck. Where’s a post distancing yourself from Him? Where’s the post decrying his  profanity? Where’s the indignation? You’re right Ken, if you want to be a spokesman for God, it’d probably would be a good idea to have your facts straight, dontcha think? How about this one Ken, read the whole Bible.

  105. To all the emergents who love to talk about “Christians” :

    (by the way, those who have the Spirit of Truth, know where you ‘emerge’ from…it is so evident in your rebellion.)

    “Heretics love to point out what is wrong with Christians, but their solutions are worse than the problems they continually enumerate.” – Sandy Simpson

    Pastor Ken, you just got to love that quote. It just has sooo much truth in it.

    Love

  106. More of the Spirit of Truth from A W Tozer…what a true man of God…one who OBEYED the Word, not wrestled with it’s demands, and yes emergents, there are demands. ( I can hear the shreeeking now )

    “We have gotten accustomed to the blurred puffs of gray fog that pass for doctrine in churches and expect nothing better. From some previously unimpeachable sources are now coming vague statements consisting of a milky admixture of Scripture, science, and human sentiment that is true to none of its ingredients because each one works to cancel the others out. Little by little Christians these days are being brainwashed. One evidence is that increasing numbers of them are becoming ashamed to be found unequivocally on the side of truth. They say they believe, but their beliefs have been so diluted as to be impossible of clear definition. Moral power has always accompanied definite beliefs. Great saints have always been dogmatic. We need a return to a gentle dogmatism that smiles while it stands stubborn and firm on the Word of God that lives and abides forever.” – A. W. Tozer

    God still preaches through A.W. Tozer’s writings
    Amen.

  107. No Joe..I was working.
    I’m never done…I live to preach on until He calls..then I’m done…but I might have to change crowds every once in a while while I wipe off some old spit, drink a big glass of pure water from the spring that never runs dry, and get back to work in my Lord’s field.

  108. Lawrence, you said you were done. You grew tired of me or something. Now, that we’re talking, BTW, I love Tozer. If we can agree to not discuss Ken I’d love for you to answer my questions. Can we do that?

  109. I love Ken, I sent link in an email of his writings on McManus the guru heritc from California..(go figure)…to a youth worker who seems to be wraped up with his “conversations”.
    So… Ken doesn’t need any help from me…but your tone with Ken does play into consideration how I might respond with you. I love Tozer also..so we do see something in common…but we SHOULD have more in common than Tozer. But just because I or You claim Christ doesn’t nessesarly mean that is true…Jesus said we would KNOW them by thier fruits…which come from His Spirit, and OBEDIENCE to His Words…all of them..including everything that isn’t “IN THE RED LETTERS.”

    What’s up Joe?

  110. Ms Piligram,
    His response indicates his prevailing attitude? He was actually very kind in his response. He at least answered your question.
    1) They respond. Have you not seen their response?
    2) I do see your point on writting your name. Although it is not a big deal.
    3) Why can you not accept someones annointing as a pastor because they do not answer your question?
    4) How does saying “Christians Suck” cause a brother to stumble? I am not sure why someone needs to apologize when they did nothing wrong. If you came to my house and said ” I need to wee wee or I need to go pee and I said to you I would prefer you use the word piss; would you do it? Of course not and I would not expect you to. This is their blog if you are offended by it you don’t come back right? If you did not like what a store was selling would you keep going back or would you demand they change their ways?
    5) As far as Joe goes, Is sarcasm sinful? Did he ever attack anyone? He asked questions, they did not like the questions and they retaliated. I believe Jesus was a bit sarcastic in the bible.
    6)Dave Anderson never said God called him to fail the first time. In fact he said it could have been from some sin in his life. If it was wrong for Joe to be sarcastic or insulting but you can call someone self righteous and that is ok? Our whole relationship with God is a story! I applaud Dave for sharing his success and short comings.
    7) I find is humerous that you would accuse others of not answering questions, not showing love and being self righteous. Go back and read your point under number seven and seriously tell me how you came across.

  111. Lawerence,
    Why do you quote everything but the bible if you feel the bible is all we need?
    Joe’s comment to Ken was quite gentle. Why is it ok for Ken to write harshly to the emergent folks but Joe can not respond back that way to him?(I do not feel he is being harsh but obviously you do) Why is it a question of his salvation and not Kens? Joe at least does not lie and decieve to prove his point, you can not say that about your buddy Ken.

  112. Lawrence, Ken’s post was about McManus was a disgrace. His post about this blog was a disgrace. What about Chris P using the same word. No condemnation there though for him. I’m not sure if you’re trying to say you don’t think I’m saved or not. So be it. I agree many who Claim Christ aren’t actually known by HIm. I wonder if someday they will say, “But LORD we attacked all the emergent heretics in your name (and we were willing to lie to do it), we stood on the Wall!” and He’ll reply, “Get away from me, I never knew you.” Yes, I am sure you can apply this to people I agree with too.
    Did you actually read the McManus article. Not Ken’s but the one he quoted from.

  113. Ken Silva,

    Peter describes this group well when he recalls the true proverb.

    I think it is time to shake the dust from your feet and the muck from my boots.

  114. Erica,

    Quoting from one of my posts above:

    FAITHFUL STEWARDS OF GOD’S WORD ARE TO:

    1. Crave the Word – 1 Peter 2:2
    2. Believe the Word – John 2:22
    3. Love the Word – Psalm 119:97, 127-128
    4. Long for the Word – Psalm 119:20, 40, 131
    5. Delight in the Word – Psalm 1:2, 119:35, 143
    6. Rejoice in the Word – Jeremiah 15:16, Psalm 119:111,162
    7. Treasure the Word – Job 23:12, Psalm 19:10-11
    8. Esteem the Word – Psalm 138:2, 1 Thessalonians 2:13
    9. Reverence the Word – Psalm 119:161
    10. Honor the Word – 2 Thessalonians 3:1
    11. Trust in the Word – Psalm 119:42
    12. Sing the Word – Psalm 119:54,172, Colossians 3:16
    13. Meditate on the Word – Psalm 1:2; Joshua 1:8
    14. Memorize the Word – Psalm 119:11, 16, 61, 128-129, 176
    15. Abide in the Word – John 15:7, 1 John 2:23-25
    16. Obey the Word – Deuteronomy 17:19-20, Joshua 22:5, Psalm 119:67, Luke 8:21, John 14:15, 17:6, 1 John 2:3-5, 5:2-3
    17. Be Conformed by the Word – Psalm 119: 133, 1 Timothy 6:3, Titus 1:1
    18. Not to be ashamed of the Word – Romans 1:16, 2 Timothy 1:8
    19. Contend for the Word – Jude 3, Titus 1:9
    20. Defend the Word – Philippians 1:7
    21. Suffer for the Word – 2 Timothy 1:8
    22. Do not neglect the Word – 1 Corinthians 9:16
    23. Be empowered with the Word – 1 Thessalonians 1:5
    24. Hope in the Word – Romans 15:4
    25. Live the Word – Ezra 7:10, Philippians 1:27, James 1:22-25
    26. Take heed to the Word – 1 Timothy 4:16
    27. Rightly divide the Word – 2 Timothy 2:15, Nehemiah 8:8
    28. Retain the standard of the Word – 2 Timothy 2:13-14
    29. Read the Word – 1 Timothy 4:13; Colossians 4:16
    30. Share the Word – 1 Thessalonians 1:8, 2 Thessalonians 3:1
    31. Teach the Word – 2 Timothy 4:1-5
    32. Exhort with the Word – 1 Timothy 4:13
    33. Preach the Word – 2 Timothy 4:2
    34. Tremble at His Word – Isaiah 66:2

    Compare that with the ways of the wicked:
    They willingly: corrupt the Word, 2 Cor. 2:17;
    reject the Word, Jer. 8:9; disobey the Word,
    Psalm 119:158; wrest the Word, 2 Pt. 3:16;
    speak not its truth, Isaiah 8:20;
    hate its instruction, Psalm 50:16-17;
    cannot understand it, I Corinthians 2:14;
    they lay aside the Word, Mark 7:6-9; heed doctrines of demons, 1Timothy 4:1-2;
    promote destructive heresies, 2 Peter 2:1;
    are factious, Titus 3:9-10; and proclaim another gospel, Galatians 1:6-9.

  115. I don’t know about Chris P, using the word. I’m ignorant of it..if it wasn’t used to quote someone, but as a slang term…then the chips fall in truth.
    Ken’s site..found them and the back up material from the former youth worker at Mcmanus’ “church” very informative.
    Also found some very strange “poetry” and “writings” from Mcmanus on his website to be strange “Kalifornia” wierd, and new age’y. Definately some mystical weirdo from the California area stuff….weird…kinda distant and creepy..straight out of some wierd book in some strange library kinda stuff.
    Check it out on erwinmcmanus.com ( i think the address is right, I don’t know…I’m still shivering and creeped out) :)

  116. Lawrence,

    Thank you for posting all of those scriptures. It did my heart good to look at them, reflect on them, and know in my heart that I am living by all of them 1-34.

    We are not trying to promote division. We are trying to get people to think for themselves, read the scripture for themselves, undertstand the scripture for themselves(with the help of the Holy Spirit).

    I have listened to Pastor Silva and have read quite a few of his articles on Apprising, and I am further convinced that I am doing what God has called me to do.

    The post on this blog called “Why Christians Suck” was not targeted to “all” Christians, only those who act in such a manner as described in said article.

    As far as being “Emergent” or a “Fundamentalist”…I am neither….I am a “follower of Christ”, a “Christian”.

    I am a 40 something year old doing my best to fulfill the mission and vision God himself has placed in my heart.

    I don’t agree with 100 percent of what is coming from the “Emerging” ranks, neither do I agree with 100 percent of what is coming from the “Fundamentalist” ranks.

    I intend to live by the example that Jesus set. I intend to be a man of conviction. A man of character. A man of integrity. A man full of the Spirit. A man who loves God and people.

    Peace!
    Jimmy

  117. Erica, Tell me how drinking brings glory to God. That was my question. Let me help you with this example. My wife’s face was torn away in an accident due to someone that thought drinking was ok. She suffers life long injuries & scars because of this persons unwise decision. Her survival & testimony bring glory to God. If you drink you will at sometime be drunk. If you are drunk you will at sometime make a poor decision. Maybe God will have you glorify Him in this way also. Good grief what’s next! I guess you think child porn is alright as long as you’re not filming it!

  118. Amen Jimmy! Thank you for sharing your heart again.
    Lawerence thank you for the list! It was refreshing!

  119. I desire by His grace to live by all of them myself…I’m not there yet, I love all of them because they set me free…TRUTH.

    Why then is the term “Christian” here so trampled?

    There are ‘poser’ christians who give the cause of Christ a bad name…BUT the name “Christian” still means something in truth, just not in some action.

    So to lump “Christians” into some blob of people who +*)(% , does the name a diservice. That’s my understanding of the whole thing.

    Love…because He loved me first…while I was dead, he called me….I am forever His…held by His grace…desiring to love Him back…even if it is still from behind the veil we are seeing from…

    Goota run..pick up daughter from baby sittiing………..PEACE

  120. Anthony,
    I feel for your wife, and you. I cannot imagine what would happen if my wife went through that. But it’s irrelevant for this discussion. What I mean is it doesn’t bear on what the Bible says. The bible says, it is a sin to get drunk. Yet, we find Jesus turning water into wine. That whole story is pretty interesting, I wonder how mondern day watch blogs would have felt about him being at that party.

  121. Anthony,

    You have my greatest condolences for the harm done to your wife by a drunk driver. A good friend of mine and his mother were killed a number of years ago by a drunk driver, and his family has never recovered from the pain caused. There is a good reason why God prohibited drunkenness.

    I do not argue that drunkenness is not a sin, nor do I argue that driving after any amount of drinking is wise or honoring of God. However, drinking is not drunkenness, and there is Biblical support for one being acceptable and the other, not. It is not logical that if one drinks alcohol, he/she will become drunk. I have had alcohol in the 39 years of my life less times than I can count on one hand, and none of those times did I come anywhere close to being drunk. All were in the privacy of my home, with my wife, alone (and years ago, before our kids were old enough to understand what alcohol was).

    Based solely on scripture, drinking is not a sin, but drunkenness is. To declare otherwise is to nullify part of God’s word.

    However, it is wise that we not flaunt our freedom in Christ in a way that might make others stumble, I agree. This would not prohibit a husband and wife having a glass of wine in the privacy of their home, though.

  122. Lawrence,

    I do not see that the term “Christian” is trampled here.

    Again…”The post on this blog called “Why Christians Suck” was not targeted to “all” Christians, only those who act in such a manner as described in said article.”

    Anthony…please accept our deepest condolences on the harm done to your wife. It is amazing though how God can take something so tragic and bring glory to Himself.

    I also lost a very dear friend due to a drunken driver…however…according to scripture it is not a sin to merely drink wine…only to be drunk in excess.
    it is merely very poor judgement for someone to drive after even consuming just one glass of wine.

    Jimmy

  123. As I said before. “Joe Martino said: ‘Jesus did not answer questions from the Religious Leaders of the day…’ ” I simply showed that this was not true. You can show a gazillion passages that Jesus did not answer but it does not negate where He did. And the questions He would ask were answers in themselves.

    Joe, your apostate conduct here has spoken definitely spoken volumes. And Paul, I agree my brother. There are none so blind as those who just will not see.

  124. Ken, God will judge between you and I. I pray you will repent of your lies and deceit, your hypocrisy, and your Pharisaical ways. Thank you for calling me Apostate. The day you call me anything but I will start to question my own salvation.

  125. Ken,

    While I may disagree with the blanket nature of Joe’s posit about Jesus’ answers/questions (I believe that they were situational, with the context determining his responses, or lack thereof), I’m not sure that holding an inaccurate perception of what is truly a tertiary issue would qualify as apostasy.

    Your purposeful, unfounded slander of numerous Christian brothers on your “ministry” site, though, would certainly qualify as sins against the body of Christ, though, and your continuing to relegate your words as God’s words would fall somewhere in the bounds of blasphemy. You’re not really in a spot to be pulling out specks from Joe’s eye, with the redwood tree jutting our of yours…

  126. I came back after a couple of days…oh, my! This “conversation” has certainly taken on a life of it’s own!

    A little off topic here, but I noticed relevantchristian’s comment: according to scripture it is not a sin to merely drink wine…only to be drunk in excess. It is merely very poor judgement for someone to drive after even consuming just one glass of wine. In general, I have to agree with the “not a sin” statement (is there a difference between “drunk” and “drunk in excess”? I always thought “drunk” was DRUNK). However, I fail to understand why “emergents” and others spend so much time defending their right or “liberty” to drink. I’ve read the Scriptures; I know that Jesus turned water in to wine; I know that Paul told Timothy to use wine for medicinal purposes, BUT in this society that seems to have NO CONCEPT of the term RESTRAINT, why mess with something that has so much potential for harm?

    If I don’t drink (which I don’t), I rarely have to explain to others the reason why. However, if I’m a Christian and I drink, it seems I’ll spend a lot of time trying to convince others I’m on solid, Biblical ground. Hardly seems worth the effort, especially when I could be spending the same time sharing the Gospel, praying or reading the Word. There are probably lots of things we have the “liberty” to do, but are they really that beneficial to the ultimate cause/goal?

  127. Anthony,
    I am sorry to hear about your wife. I can see now why you feel so strongly about drinking I don’t blame you. Have you ever had an alcholic beverage? I personally like to drink a glass of wine every now and again. I have never gotten drunk drinking a glass of wine. I know the feeling that comes when enough is enough. When I was pregnant toward the end of the last trimester I would drink a glass of wine to literally settle my stomach and it worked wonders. It is wrong to get drunk and it is wrong to drink and drive. If they drank at the wedding feast in Cana and Jesus was their it had to bring glory to him right? It does not bring glory to Him if it is mis used in any way.
    Don’t you think that is a pretty big leap from alcohol to child poronography? We showed you plenty of examples as to where drinking wine is in scripture. There is no where in scripture where having sexually relations with a child is right. I can not even believe you would take that leap!

  128. Keith,

    I made that statement in response to a comment made to Erica that “drinking is a sin” and was just giving my thought on it. I also believe that the reason Erica and others like myself are having to “defend” our position is that some keep trying to call things “sin” which are not. Ephesians 5:8 states “And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit”, so the argument could be made that drinking is probably not a wise decision because it can be done in, (as the scripture states), excess.

    I like the thought that you put at the end of your comment, “There are probably lots of things we have the “liberty” to do, but are they really that beneficial to the ultimate cause/goal?”.

    That is a very true statement, and very well put. Something to think about.

  129. Keith,
    I have a glass of wine almost every night. I hardly spend any time explaining ot people that I’m ok to drink. It comes up occassionally, with some of my friends who are more conservative in their theology and practice than I am, but very rarely. So I’m not sure I track that particular arguement.
    Joe

  130. Like I said before I grew up believing that drinking was wrong. My mother found out my sister drank an alcoholic beverage one time and she cried and cried thinking she was now on her way to Hell. My mom is a wonderful lady but we were raised in a home and church that believed others (meaning pagans) decided to choose Christ based on my actions. I was always told “That is a bad testimony.” I always condemned pagans for the things they did. I was quick to explain to them why they were wrong and how I was so great because I did none of those things. I had Jesus! I could not understand why they would not want my perfect self righteous life. When I met my husband I started looking at life a little differently. It was like lightning struck me. Duh, pagans do what they do because they have no relationship with Christ!! The biggest issue in their life is not all the sin they are engaging in it is fact they do not have Christ!
    My approach soon changed in handling them. I now just love on them, I don’t try to fix them. Without compromising my own integrity, I meet them where they are in life. In fact, I often as Christian, have some of the same tragedies penetrate my own life. The great thing is I had Christ to get through and get to share that with them.
    One last example; my husband waits table for a living. Their is a girl we have gotten very close too she is a pagan. She hates Christian people. She gets a lot of tracks in the form of money. They even have a co-worker who is a Christian also, she was me at her age, she looks at our pecan friend when she is stressed out over a table and says to her “you just need to trust God.” It makes our pagan friend so angry. The other girl walks around very self righteous. The pagan can not stand her. This girl loves my husband and I. Why because we simply love her. We do not shove all the church answers down her throat. She knows something is different about us because we are real, and we love her. She knows all about our Christian life but we never push that on her.
    This is what I have learned about my relationship with Christ, it is not about pretending, and being self righteous. It is about God and His work on the the cross and showing the love He displayed that day to everyone I meet.

  131. Chris L.,

    For someone who is obviously intellegent I am quite often amazed at your spiritual blindness. You said: “I’m not sure that holding an inaccurate perception of what is truly a tertiary issue would qualify as apostasy.”

    Neither would I, and I am not even talking about this non-issue. His conduct and character is the subject and by his own mouth he left the historic orthodox Biblical Christian faith (what he mocks as “fightin’ fundie”) for his apostate semi-pelagian heresy.

    Meaning no disrespect but as a pastor I would offer the advice that perhaps you should just mind your own business.

  132. Joe:

    The “drinking” argument tends to come up more here in the “buckle of the Bible belt” (Tulsa OK) where the “big sins” are smokin’, drinkin’ and dancin’. That was where I was coming from. I realize that in other areas of the country, that may not be the case.

  133. Jesus rose from the dead! Is this really all there is to talk about? Amazing Grace – How sweet the sound – that saved a wretch like me! I hope that Jesus is lifted high in whatever context and style of church you find yourself serving in this weekend.

    Jesus Rocks!

  134. I haven’t read all the posts, so please forgive me if I repeat someone else.

    My children recently asked me why it isn’t okay to use profanity. I asked them, “How will others know you are different and love the Lord if you behave as unruly, disobedient, and disrespectful children?”

    How do I explain to a teenager that it is okay to use profanity as an adult, but not as a child? That it’s okay for a pastor to use profanity to make a point in his sermon, but it’s not okay for them to use profanity to make a point? Does it even make sense to teach children morals and how to have the character of Jesus, when pastors are usurping our instruction at the pulpit? Doesn’t the Word call us to “not have/give” the appearance of evil?”

    If Jesus only showed love to people and was always passive concerning sin, what are we to make of his outburst when He found people selling goods in the temple? He yelled, tossed the table, threw the coins, told them all to leave, and displayed outrage and anger at their behavior.

    Additionally, Jesus did ask, “Who are you to cast the first stone.” But He also “acknowledged” the woman’s sin and told her, “to go and SIN no more.”

    We are to be light and salt to the world. How will they know we are different if we behave as the world behaves?

  135. Ken, you never cease to amaze me. What do you know about me? I think you’re angry because I called you. I put your lies in print. I showed the world your true colors. My wife brought up a funny point today. You don’t allow comments on your blog because you don’t want people with a different perspective commenting. You were tired of people mocking you, calling you names, and all that. Yet, you’re all over the blogosphere….how did you put the other day…engaged in internet wars. Ken, the reality is that you are a fraud. You still haven’t addressed your lies about McManus. Ken, you LIED about a brother in Christ, unless you’re saying that McManus isn’t saved either?

  136. Anthony, I’m still not sure I follow your logic. So he did turn water into wine. If all drinking is sin than how does that work? If you’re logic is correct then Jesus would have been causing them to sin.

  137. Ken, Why isn’t what you say about me (a friend and brother of Chris’) his business? I’ll say it again, you’re angry because you were called out for speaking falsely against a brother.
    Meaning no disrespect, but as a Child of the Most High God, I would recommend you repent.

  138. My dearest Joe,

    O please. me thinks you flatter yourself: “I think you’re angry because I called you. I put your lies in print. I showed the world your true colors.”

    Sorry about that chief, but I’m not angry in the least because the man you “called” is someone else. However, you might want to reimagine, or repaint, your false accusations. Though I have prayed and forgiven you, how the Lord will handle your insolence might be another matter. Keep in mind that when I write about McManus or Bell I write as a peer.

    And Joe know this; as long as Jesus sustains me I will faithfully write what God leads me to write, to the end; no matter what, in Christ. :-)

  139. Mr Siliva,
    God never calls us to act the way you do. Your action are not from Christ so please stop giving Him the credit for your sin. You have the right to your opinion just like everyone else. The way you choose to handle people is sin. If you would like me to lay it out for you verse by verse I would be more than happy too. YOU DO NOT KNOW ANY OF THESE MENS HEART! You find “dirt on these men” and than you twist the truth to prove a point. Do you have nothing better to do with your time than research other Christians and spread lies and cause disention in the body of Christ? If you really enjoying doing this than why don’t you stop being a pastor and become a news reporter? Non of the men you write about deny Jesus Christ. In fact, they all believe in the ressurection of Jesus Christ. They all share Gods love with everyone they meet. Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, He did not stay dead! He conquered death and rose again!! The gospel message is so sweet so simple yet you never seem talk about it. You never talk about what Christ has done in your life! Ken Slivia if you know the Lord your life should be happy. You are not a happy person. You can tell by what you write. I don’t hate you or despise you, in fact I pray for you. I worry about you. I wonder what has penetrated your life in such away that you can do is bash other people in effort to build yourself up and than do it in the name of Lord. You are very hurt man. I am sorry that you do not find comfort in the cross. I am sorry that your happiness is found in destroying other people. I pray that you will find in life what you are desperatly searching for.(and please do not find these statements to be self righteous or judgemental, this is what the Lord has revealed to me through prayer about you) Christ is all you need! You say you know the Lord than spend the rest of your life serving HIm! Forget everyone else and rather or not they choose to do things the way you do. Spend the rest of your life loving God and loving people! I will continue to pray for you as work through these personal struggles in your life. I just prayed for you before I posted this comment. I believe in you!

  140. Anthony,
    You are absolutely right, God showed His power and glory in turning the water into wine. So, why were they serving wine if it is so wrong? Why did Paul say a little wine is good for the stomach?
    Do you believe that drinking period is sin? Or do you believe that is not for you but as long as people do not get drunk they can make their own choice?
    Look, drinking is something I typically do in the privacy of my own home. If fact it is a liberty I would be more than willing to give up if I was asked to.
    The biggest thing in my life that I want said of me when I die is that I loved the Lord and everyone around me knew that. I want to make a difference in others lives. I have fun discussing on web pages like this. If nothing else it gives me adult conversation while I am home. In truth the only thing I am willing to die for is what Christ did on the cross and how it has changed my life.

  141. You write as a peer? What does that mean? I did call you out. Your not their peer, just because you claim the title of Pastor. Ken, I hate to do this but for you I will. I’m ordained. I’ve been to Seminary. I’m not currently working in a church as a Pastor. So, if you’re trying to insult me because your a pastor and I’m not that’s cool. Ken, I’ll say it again, YOU LIED!
    You’re not their peer you’re just a man who is to be pitied because you have to tell lies about other people to make yourself feel better. What’s worse when your confronted with the lies you hide behind a title? What is that? Are you saying it’s ok to lie about someone if you consider yourself their peer?
    God leads you to write lies? Did I read that correctly? So, now, your writings are inspired? God doesn’t’ care about truth? Ken, your not special because you’re ordained by an organization that you believe is apostate. You’re just mean. You’re dishonest. I’ve laid out my accusations in print. I allowed your words to speak for themselves so prove me wrong.
    LOL, I don’t even know why I’m doing this, your soul is so seared all your going to do is not answer the questions, all your going to do is attack me.
    So Ken, tell me how does that work? Oh and if you missed the link here it is:

    http://christianresearchnetwork.info/2007/03/25/ken-silva-is-against-paul-and-jesus-himself/

    Ken, ANYONE who wants to see Ken’s lie’s in action just go there and read it. I didn’t edit any of his quotes or McManus’. I simply put them out there.

  142. Ken,

    A few points of order:

    1) You’re not a peer to anyone you write about. Titles do not peers make. As we teach new supervisors in our formal leadership training, “If find that you’re having to remind people of your title, then perhaps you aren’t qualified for it.” This is why you are not a peer to any of the Godly men you write about, titles aside, you’re not qualified. Your words and actions prove it.

    2) You wrote:

    Meaning no disrespect but as a pastor I would offer the advice that perhaps you should just mind your own business.

    Aside of trying to remind me of your title (see #1 above), if it was none of my business, then why are you posting it on a public forum instead of talking to Joe in private. Or (as usual) are you just trying to score snark points?

  143. Anthony,

    I would guess that Keith understands that all sins are equal in the eyes of God, which is probably why he put “big sins” in quotes (since drinking, smoking and dancing are not, in and of themselves sinful, though they may not always be appropriate).

  144. Ok folks….I agree with Dave Anderson…I think this little blog has gotten a little off track.

    I believe that it says in the scripture…”Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples.” John 13:35 NLT

    I don’t agree with Mr. Silva’s tactics either, neither do I approve of bashing each other because of our differences in beliefs. It seems we are “majoring on the minors” here.

  145. Erica, was Cana to observe the law at this time? Did His mother say (we) have no more wine? Did Jesus drink of the wine. Was Paul a sinner? Was Timothy a sinner? Are we to be like the people in Cana, Paul, Timothy? I think I’ll just stick to striving to be like Christ. Someone posted earlier that it was’nt logical to say that if you drink at some point you would get drunk. Peter did’nt think it was logical for him to deny Jesus either. The flesh is weak. It won’t really matter to me what is said of me when I die. Reputation is what is written on a headstone, character is what is presented before God. As I said earlier, there is nothing for me to lose if I am wrong in my judgement on this topic. God will not hold it against me for trying to steer people clear from something that could destroy thier lives or the lives of others.

  146. Please…feel free to view one of the other great posts on this sight.

    Let’s get back to encouraging those who want to, to think outside of the box and relevantly present the gospel to a modern culture who desperately needs to hear it.

    Peace!

  147. Joe,

    You said: “you claim the title of Pastor.” No, I’m afraid you’re mistaken as I don’t “claim” anything. But I must say, for someone who’s “been to Seminary” you do have much to learn. Then you say, “I’ve laid out my accusations in print.” Right, accusations.

    Next you said: “prove me wrong.” There’s nothing to prove; I said what I said, and you see what you see so that’s betwen you and Jesus. I can live with that. Then you whine: “all your going to do is attack me.” Seems you got that backward there Joe. Remember, it was you who started this. This by the way is fine by me but I was writing about other people who really have nothing to do with you personally.

    Again, if you wish to defend them it really makes no difference to me because I know where I’ve been, I know Who called me and I know what Jesus wants me to do. Joe, I’ve nothing against you, no matter how you act or what you have said. You have your convictions and unfortunately you are on the wrong side of the issues.

    Then finally you informed us, “ANYONE who wants to see Ken’s lie’s in action just go there and read it. I didn’t edit any of his quotes or McManus’. I simply put them out there.” This is good. I have put Erwin’s distortions of the genuine Gospel of Jesus Christ out there. There’s more than that one article. So I hope they go and read all of them, whatever they want to. Because you see, those with eyes to see will see.

    And again, I can live with that Joe…

  148. Jimmy,

    I would agree this discussion has more than run it’s course. Thank you for allowing me to speak and no matter what you think of my tactics, out of respect I make this the last I’ll say here on these minors. Best we all move on. :-)

  149. Jimmy,
    Ok, I’m done. This discussion between Ken and I has been brewing for quite some time and when it happened here it sort of surprised me as he has many other opportunities to have it on personally owned webpages. Either way, I”m done on this one.

  150. BTW Ken, I noticed you didn’t actually answer my questions, especially the one on being a peer…If you want to answer me in email I believe you know the address.

  151. Hey Anthony,
    I strongly disagree with you and I believe you are taking huge steps in logic. However, as I said before, it is not something I would die for. It is not something I am willing to offend you over by continuing to prove my point. I respect what you have gone through and I appreciate your willingness to hold true to what you believe is wrong.

  152. Anthony:

    Although it looks like Chris L already responded for me (and quite accurately I must say), I just wanted to check in and acknowledge your comment. You are correct–sin is sin (regardless of what the definition of “is” is). No toes stepped on here.

    It’s kind of interesting that you felt the need to comment — and I’m not offended at all — but it does drive home some of what I think I’ve been seeing here on this particular thread. There appears to be a lot of back and forth conversation prompted by the fact that we are all relying on simply what we read. We are at a disadvantage in that we cannot see facial expressions or, in the case of my comment about “big sins”, you could not hear an inflection in my voice that most certainly would have implied sarcasm. Does that make sense? I see a lot of people here getting their BVD’s in a twist over comments that may not really imply what the reader thinks they do. That’s too bad. It has been an interesting read, though.

    Angela– I think you made some very legitimate points. I feel the same way about the TV shows I watch. If I don’t think they are appropriate for my children or if I would be embarrassed to watch the show with them in the room–I use the channel selector or the on/off switch. There’s got to be consistency if we ever hope to have people take us seriously.

  153. Keith, I knew what you meant about “big sins”. Sorry I did’nt make a better statement. Food for thought here. Do you watch any shows that you would not ask Jesus to watch with you if He were here? I don’t even have tv.

  154. Anthony:

    I don’t watch that much TV and when I do, it’s usually the History Channel, Discovery or HGTV. Don’t rent movies as a rule, mainly because there’s very little out there I’m interested in seeing. If I do watch a movie, it’s on network TV where “most” of the language is edited out. I can’t say that I filter 100%, but I do make a concerted attempt. I lived without TV for two years–it can be done.

    To answer your specific question: Yes, there have been occasions where I would have been uncomfortable with Jesus sitting right next to me (I’ll beat you to the punch–I know that He already is there with me). I don’t watch shows like the Simpsons, Southpark, etc. Honestly, I’m probably more strict about what I read or watch than most of the Christians I know (some of them make it a point to ridicule me because I don’t watch the same shows they do). I’m not saying that because I think I’m better…to coin a phrase, “that’s just my culture.”

    Have a great Lord’s Day!

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  157. A bit late to the game here…I’m surprised at the amount of space dedicated to the use of the word “sucks.”

    Growing up, “thongs” meant shoes. Now that means a strange underwear and the proper word for those kind of shoes is “flip-flops.” I have a hard time remembering that the word has changed meaning. The same can be said for “gay” and other words whose meaning changes. I daresay that Christian groups who are fighting the “gay agenda” most certainly aren’t fighting against happy folk. They are very much using the new word.

    To me, “sucks” has never meant fellatio. It falls into the category of saying “that bites”, that’s “too bad”, that’s “no good.”

    Now, you might say that the analogy isn’t correct because “gay” originally meant something much nicer than fellatio but I say that the point is that words change and do not mean the same between generations. They do. Sucks is not a crude word for me. It’s common. It’s splitting hairs to be quoting scripture to prove that the word “sucks” is enough to question the salvation of a person.

    You know what sucks? People going to hell while Christians talk about a word. Talk about The Word. That’s all.

  158. I only read the first quarter or so of all these posts, and I sit here…stunned?….sad?…I don’t know. Debate among Christians is good – it means we’re testing things to see if they’re true. But this is more than debate. This is hatred. We argue over if “sucks” is vulgar – it may or may not be – yet we totally disregard how we treat each other with our speech in the process. May we extend the grace we’ve been shown by our God to one another. We will disagree, no doubt about that. But may we do so seasoned with love, striving as always to please our Lord and Savior and bring him glory.

    Spirit is thicker than blood.

    Brad

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  160. I don’t have time to read all 200 comments, but all I can say is that I think a lot of people would be surprised at Jesus’ behavior if he were walking the earth today. The pharisees thought they were more spiritual than Him then, and I am sure many people would think the same thing today.

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